Dying chickens

[TerryH]

I decided that a video would be a better platform to show what I see going on with the chip pile instead of photos. Her is my disclaimer. I am not a scientist. These are simply my own opinions based on what I see. I could be totally wrong. I will update once the cultures that the U of A Poultry Science Department are currently doing are complete and I get that information.

Video attached...

[VIDEO]

 

[Molpet]

@Beekissed I know you use chips ...any thoughts or issues you have seen that are similar?

 

[SunshineMary]

Thanks for taking the time to make that video. I think we are going to hold off for now on using wood chips in our run and stick with pine shavings (which are kiln dried) and straw.

 

[Beekissed]

@Beekissed I know you use chips ...any thoughts or issues you have seen that are similar?

Yes, I've used them....never freshly chipped up piles, though. Too hot~literally...you can hold your hand over the pile and feel the heat coming off the pile~and too wet for use in a coop or run when they are fresh. I also didn't use just a layer of wood chips....I always stress to everyone to use a variety of materials for good deep litter...the more variety the better. Then these layers are built gradually, like lasagna gardening, by adding dry material as needed when top layers become too moist. If my coop is dry and not holding good humidity to the mass, I'll add wood chips to hold more moisture into the pack.

I've never had any illness nor even respiratory symptoms from using deep litter in the coop and didn't when I put wood chips in there either. Never heard of anyone reporting any issues about such things until now.

As I see it, this is a special set of circumstances....newly chopped chips, small area of confinement compared to stocking numbers, right weather conditions for high fungal growth and birds that are susceptible to disease or illness actually getting an illness and dying from it. The rest of the flock showed no signs of any Aspergillus, so one cannot blame the chips for chicken death exclusively....birds with weak immune systems will eventually die from one of the million and one fungi, bacteria, etc. that are and will be in their environment and that's not too uncommon at all. Happens all the time all over the world for various and sundry reasons.

This statement made earlier in the thread is quite apt....

Quote:
Conditions were right, freshly chopped trees were used, which creates a heat and humidity to the materials~especially when piled or kept thickly layered~that would promote rapid fungal growth. Then a ground dwelling bird was placed on this hot, moist material filled with fungus and couldn't get off it...as that heat rose from the litter, so did the fungal spores. Then birds that already had compromised immune systems were present in that group of birds and died from the experience. Most lived and didn't have any evidence of the Aspergillus in their systems when swabbed...that tells me that, though the fungus was instrumental in their deaths, it wasn't the only cause or all the birds would have had it and sickened or died.

The thing with deep litter is knowing when to use what kind of materials....folks in arid climates can get by with adding moist, humid bedding to counteract the dry, arid conditions in their coops while folks living in humid, hot areas are better using naturally dry and more woody materials to combat the natural humidity in their coops and runs...that would include woody stems of plant matter, dry and cured out wood chips, pine shavings, dry leaves, twigs, corn stalks, hay, etc. Trying to avoid materials that are moist or hold their own moisture like hay, grass, fresh wood chip with the green (leaves)chipped in, etc.

I wouldn't take this one incident and tell folks that they shouldn't ever use wood chips in their runs for deep litter....but I will be telling them not to use freshly chipped trees as their only deep litter material and especially not in the summer months or during any humid weather conditions.

 

[Molpet]

Yes, I've used them....never freshly chipped up piles, though. Too hot~literally...you can hold your hand over the pile and feel the heat coming off the pile~and too wet for use in a coop or run when they are fresh. I also didn't use just a layer of wood chips....I always stress to everyone to use a variety of materials for good deep litter...the more variety the better. Then these layers are built gradually, like lasagna gardening, by adding dry material as needed when top layers become too moist. If my coop is dry and not holding good humidity to the mass, I'll add wood chips to hold more moisture into the pack.

I've never had any illness nor even respiratory symptoms from using deep litter in the coop and didn't when I put wood chips in there either. Never heard of anyone reporting any issues about such things until now.

As I see it, this is a special set of circumstances....newly chopped chips, small area of confinement compared to stocking numbers, right weather conditions for high fungal growth and birds that are susceptible to disease or illness actually getting an illness and dying from it. The rest of the flock showed no signs of any Aspergillus, so one cannot blame the chips for chicken death exclusively....birds with weak immune systems will eventually die from one of the million and one fungi, bacteria, etc. that are and will be in their environment and that's not too uncommon at all. Happens all the time all over the world for various and sundry reasons.

This statement made earlier in the thread is quite apt....


Conditions were right, freshly chopped trees were used, which creates a heat and humidity to the materials~especially when piled or kept thickly layered~that would promote rapid fungal growth. Then a ground dwelling bird was placed on this hot, moist material filled with fungus and couldn't get off it...as that heat rose from the litter, so did the fungal spores. Then birds that already had compromised immune systems were present in that group of birds and died from the experience. Most lived and didn't have any evidence of the Aspergillus in their systems when swabbed...that tells me that, though the fungus was instrumental in their deaths, it wasn't the only cause or all the birds would have had it and sickened or died.

The thing with deep litter is knowing when to use what kind of materials....folks in arid climates can get by with adding moist, humid bedding to counteract the dry, arid conditions in their coops while folks living in humid, hot areas are better using naturally dry and more woody materials to combat the natural humidity in their coops and runs...that would include woody stems of plant matter, dry and cured out wood chips, pine shavings, dry leaves, twigs, corn stalks, hay, etc. Trying to avoid materials that are moist or hold their own moisture like hay, grass, fresh wood chip with the green (leaves)chipped in, etc.

I wouldn't take this one incident and tell folks that they shouldn't ever use wood chips in their runs for deep litter....but I will be telling them not to use freshly chipped trees as their only deep litter material and especially not in the summer months or during any humid weather conditions.

I have read of several people that had a load of chips delivered and put them right in the run w/- anything else... unfortunately in this case, the conditions seems to have been conducive to problems others didn't experience.

 

[Beekissed]

I'm thinking you are right. Any given circumstance can be vastly different....run without a roof, more wind/air flow through the sides, different trees in the chipped mix(pine seems less likely for rapid fungal growth), more arid climate or even different soils, etc.

Just a unfortunate collision of events and no fault of yours or anyone's, which is often the case when it comes to unexpected chicken deaths....sometimes there's no way a person could anticipate or prevent it from happening. Most folks without your resources would never have known what happened and went blithely forward and put it down to happenstance.

I'm glad you reported it here, though, as it may help save more than a few chickens in the future.

 

[TerryH]

Thank you so much @Beekissed. I appreciate your input and your vast experience on this subject and you make some very valid points. I agree completely that this was the perfect storm of circumstances and not likely to be a common issue. I had an at length discussion with Dr. Clark this afternoon and I'll share his statements along my questions in blue. I truly do not want to be or mean to be argumentative. My only goal here is to understand everything I can about this entire situation and to make sure that anyone reading this in the future gets the most accurate information possible. It is my hope and prayer that the information shared here be helpful to others. I have no other agenda.

Yes, I've used them....never freshly chipped up piles, though.  Too hot~literally...you can hold your hand over the pile and feel the heat coming off the pile~and too wet for use in a coop or run when they are fresh.  I also didn't use just a layer of wood chips....I always stress to everyone to use a variety of materials for good deep litter...the more variety the better.  Then these layers are built gradually, like lasagna gardening, by adding dry material as needed when top layers become too moist.  If my coop is dry and not holding good humidity to the mass, I'll add wood chips to hold more moisture into the pack. 

I've never had any illness nor even respiratory symptoms from using deep litter in the coop and didn't when I put wood chips in there either.  Never heard of anyone reporting any issues about such things until now. 

As I see it, this is a special set of circumstances....newly chopped chips, small area of confinement compared to stocking numbers,


I'm a bit confused about this statement. Could you expound on this please?

right weather conditions for high fungal growth and birds that are susceptible to disease or illness actually getting an illness and dying from it. The rest of the flock showed no signs of any Aspergillus, so one cannot blame the chips for chicken death exclusively....birds with weak immune systems will eventually die from one of the million and one fungi, bacteria, etc. that are and will be in their environment and that's not too uncommon at all. 

Happens all the time all over the world for various and sundry reasons. 

This statement made earlier in the thread is quite apt....


Conditions were right, freshly chopped trees were used, which creates a heat and humidity to the materials~especially when piled or kept thickly layered~that would promote rapid fungal growth.  Then a ground dwelling bird was placed on this hot, moist material filled with fungus and couldn't get off it...as that heat rose from the litter, so did the fungal spores.  Then birds that already had compromised immune systems were present in that group of birds and died from the experience.  Most lived and didn't have any evidence of the Aspergillus in their systems when swabbed...that tells me that, though the fungus was instrumental in their deaths, it wasn't the only cause or all the birds would have had it and sickened or died. 

According to Dr. Clark the fungus transforms into the stage that it gives off spores as it dries. So when I moved chips from the pile and spread them out in the run the drying process began. This caused spores to be given off. All the birds were swabbed and all of them, including the 2 that died were in perfect health. The swabs do not test for Aspergillus. There is no test for Aspergillus. The swabs could be cultured but it is almost a given that they would be positive for the fungus given it's widespread presence. Per Dr. Clark the only cause of death was a "massive infectious dose of the fungal spores."

The fungus is more prolific in some parts of the pile vs other parts so once it was spread out those prolific areas also had a prolific amount of spores being given off once the chips began to dry. Dr. Clark also stated that even the position of the chicken's head at a given time could cause the to ingest or not ingest a lethal dose of the spores. It was the amount of spores in the 2 that died that overwhelmed them not any other condition.

The thing with deep litter is knowing when to use what kind of materials....folks in arid climates can get by with adding moist, humid bedding to counteract the dry, arid conditions in their coops while folks living in humid, hot areas are better using naturally dry and more woody materials to combat the natural humidity in their coops and runs...that would include woody stems of plant matter, dry and cured out wood chips, pine shavings, dry leaves, twigs, corn stalks, hay, etc.  Trying to avoid materials that are moist or hold their own moisture like hay, grass, fresh wood chip with the green (leaves)chipped in, etc. 

This is great information and this was my major mistake. I read a tremendous amount before I made the choice to get the wood chips. It makes perfect sense to me know that the chips were not the best choice for my conditions but at the time I made the choice seemed to be perfect because to me anyway, the fresh chips contained all the necessary components for great compost because they had the green leaves mixed in with the bark and wood pulp.

I wouldn't take this one incident and tell folks that they shouldn't ever use wood chips in their runs for deep litter....but I will be telling them not to use freshly chipped trees as their only deep litter material and especially not in the summer months or during any humid weather conditions.

I also completely agree with this.

@Beekissed I truly thank you again for your insight.

 

[Beekissed]

Quote:
From the angle of the pics taken of the run, it looked smaller than it actually is( I was thinking 8x12 at the most)~have since read your dimensions~so was just spitballing that 7-8 hens on such a small run with a high concentration of spores might receive more than their fair share of it than if they were in, say, a 10x50 or larger run...though if the chips were on the entire run it wouldn't make much difference at all. In truth, your birds have more room per stocking rate them most folks allow for the same numbers, though I have a differing view of healthy stocking rates than most folks do when it comes to permanent runs.

I don't feel you are being mean or argumentative at all! You have more of the facts than any of us folks behind the computer screen and you also have some cool resources in the form of doctors on hand to give you the 411. The best I could do was surmise from the information given and my poor excuse for knowledge, which is poor in the best of circumstances.

I love getting the chance to learn from what you've posted and will keep all of this in mind if this should happen to anyone else.

 

[TerryH]

From the angle of the pics taken of the run, it looked smaller than it actually is( I was thinking 8x12 at the most)~have since read your dimensions~so was just spitballing that 7-8 hens on such a small run with a high concentration of spores might receive more than their fair share of it than if they were in, say, a 10x50 or larger run...though if the chips were on the entire run it wouldn't make much difference at all.  In truth, your birds have more room per stocking rate them most folks allow for the same numbers, though I have a differing view of healthy stocking rates than most folks do when it comes to permanent runs.  

Thanks for the clarification. I wanted them to have more than the "accepted" 10 sq.ft. per bird. There were 8 pullets in a 9x26 run.

 

[TerryH]

Continuing to update.

From Dr. Clark today...


"Just got the info on fecal cultures from your birds, isolated from tissues and isolates from litter
No salmonella isolated. Aspergillus, rhizopus, mold and yeasts isolated."

All directly related to the wood chips per Dr. Clark. No other factors or issues involved.