English Orpington BBS and Laced genetics questions

[Egzermalda]

Yes. If you okay with the genetic calculator it’ll be the same. In a funk tonight (had to put my almost 15 year old dog to sleep) or I’d explain more and show pics of Laced to non-laced birds, but you can see some of the in the Fairy Tail Farms thread of mine on here.

Oh noes. I am so sorry. It is hard to lose one who has been so close for so long.

Please do not hurry to respond.

I actually spent a couple hours reading your thread last night.

I am a retired ER Veterinarian, so I have a pretty good handle on the BBS and Laced genetics. But despite looking at larger dual purpose breeds for almost a year and more specifically at Wyandottes and Orpingtons (and Sebrights) for the last several months, I had never noticed the difference in the lacing distribution in the different laced breeds.

The one area I am still having some difficulty with is "lacing" on BBS. Why are the BBS Blues laced but the BBS Splash are not? (I am assuming the BBS Blacks are laced but you can't see black on black?) And how does BBS lacing in Orps differ from Gold/Silver Lacing in Orps? It seems to me that since the BBS Blues are laced then so should the Blacks and Splashed. But you only see a minimal lacing on some of the blue feathers of the Splash. What happens to the lace allele in splash so that it is not seen? And how does the lacing on BBS Blue and BBS Splash "play" with Black laced Silver? Would all chicks from the cross be laced with varying shades of BBS on both the back ground color and the lacing? With some not being noticeable because the center of the feather and the lacing being so similar in color as to not be noticeable, yet still have the alleles for the lace patterns?

I saw in your thread you are "working on "Silver Laced Blue". Would this be a blue bird with white lacing on the feathers? Or a white bird with blue lacing? What cross were you using for this? It was interesting seeing you get some Whites from the Silver Laced. My breeder has some whites, I wonder if I will get some whites from my SLOs.

BTW I also have Muscovy (LOVE them, no other bird has such a chill, laidback vibe) and am thinking about getting American Geese (preferably blue) although I have a local Oregon Mini Goose breeder, so I may go that direction. I ended up going with the English Orpingtons because I live in the middle of nowhere and there was a breeder only ~30 miles away.

 

[NatJ]

I saw in your thread you are "working on "Silver Laced Blue". Would this be a blue bird with white lacing on the feathers? Or a white bird with blue lacing? What cross were you using for this?

"Silver Laced Blue" should mean white lacing on an otherwise blue bird, but I cannot find it mentioned that way in the thread or in the breed/variety listing in that poster's signature.

The first post in that thread says:

Currently I am breeding large fowl English Orpingtons in the following colors: Silver-laced, Blue, Black, Splash, Chocolate, Recessive White, Blue/Black/Splash Mottled, Lavender Mottled (growing out splits now), and am working on Lavender Silver-laced and Blue Silver-laced.

That includes "Silver-laced, Blue, Black, Splash..." with Silver-laced and Blue being separate varieties (I can tell they are separate because of the comma in between, and because Blue is next to Black and Splash which is logical from the genetics.) That listing also includes "Lavender Silver-laced" and "Blue Silver-laced," which would mean Lavender lacing (edges) or Blue lacing (edges) on Silver ground color (the middle of the feathers.)

 

[Amer]

Oh noes. I am so sorry. It is hard to lose one who has been so close for so long.

Please do not hurry to respond.

I actually spent a couple hours reading your thread last night.

I am a retired ER Veterinarian, so I have a pretty good handle on the BBS and Laced genetics. But despite looking at larger dual purpose breeds for almost a year and more specifically at Wyandottes and Orpingtons (and Sebrights) for the last several months, I had never noticed the difference in the lacing distribution in the different laced breeds.

The one area I am still having some difficulty with is "lacing" on BBS. Why are the BBS Blues laced but the BBS Splash are not? (I am assuming the BBS Blacks are laced but you can't see black on black?) And how does BBS lacing in Orps differ from Gold/Silver Lacing in Orps? It seems to me that since the BBS Blues are laced then so should the Blacks and Splashed. But you only see a minimal lacing on some of the blue feathers of the Splash. What happens to the lace allele in splash so that it is not seen? And how does the lacing on BBS Blue and BBS Splash "play" with Black laced Silver? Would all chicks from the cross be laced with varying shades of BBS on both the back ground color and the lacing? With some not being noticeable because the center of the feather and the lacing being so similar in color as to not be noticeable, yet still have the alleles for the lace patterns?

I saw in your thread you are "working on "Silver Laced Blue". Would this be a blue bird with white lacing on the feathers? Or a white bird with blue lacing? What cross were you using for this? It was interesting seeing you get some Whites from the Silver Laced. My breeder has some whites, I wonder if I will get some whites from my SLOs.

BTW I also have Muscovy (LOVE them, no other bird has such a chill, laidback vibe) and am thinking about getting American Geese (preferably blue) although I have a local Oregon Mini Goose breeder, so I may go that direction. I ended up going with the English Orpingtons because I live in the middle of nowhere and there was a breeder only ~30 miles away.

Well BBS splash don’t have enough pigment to lace. The “blue” shade is formed by the modification of eumelanin pigment. The black edge of the feathers is actually just regular eumelanin pigment that isn’t effected.
I’m not sure if your blues are laced because of the lacing gene. Even without, the lacing forms because of hormones.

 

[Egzermalda]

Assuming your Golden Comet has a white tail (not a black tail), I predict:
--silver daughters with black semi-lacing
--silver daughters with white semi-lacing (they will mosty look white)
--sons like both of the above, except their "silver" may look yellowish, and they are likely to have patches of red leakage in their shoulder area.

The Golden Comet's first egg (covered by the Black Laced Silver Orpington Roo) just hatched and here it is!!!!

 

[Egzermalda]

Assuming your Golden Comet has a white tail (not a black tail), I predict:
--silver daughters with black semi-lacing
--silver daughters with white semi-lacing (they will mosty look white)
--sons like both of the above, except their "silver" may look yellowish, and they are likely to have patches of red leakage in their shoulder area.

NatJ, so what are her genetics to put into the calculator? And this chick looks female? Sorry it is not a better picture. I sold some of her eggs and the hatcher sent this pic. I have some of her eggs in the incubator myself, but they are about a week behind.

 

[nicalandia]

The Golden Comet's first egg (covered by the Black Laced Silver Orpington Roo) just hatched and here it is!!!!

That chick looks rather blue to me.

 

[nicalandia]

NatJ, so what are her genetics to put into the calculator?

For Golden Comet. eWh/eWh, Co/Co, I/i+, Mh/mh+, s+/,

 

[NatJ]

The Golden Comet's first egg (covered by the Black Laced Silver Orpington Roo) just hatched and here it is!!!!

Cute chick!

But it looks blue, which has me puzzled. It should not be possible to get a blue chick from that cross. So either I'm wrong about the genetics of one of the parents, or I'm wrong about the chick being blue.

"Blue" chicks look gray, and so do some chicks that grow up to be black/white colors (like some Silver Spangled Hamburg chicks I've seen), so I may be mis-interpreting what color it actually is. Hopefully it will become more obvious as the chick grows.

NatJ, so what are her genetics to put into the calculator? And this chick looks female? Sorry it is not a better picture. I sold some of her eggs and the hatcher sent this pic. I have some of her eggs in the incubator myself, but they are about a week behind.

I see nicalandia gave genetics to put in the calculator, so I won't repeat that.

For gender, I don't think there is any way to tell at this age, from this set of parents. Males and females have all the same color options as chicks, although there may be some coloring differences as they grow up. The part you quoted, where I predicted colors of offspring, was a prediction of adult colors not chick down (maybe I should have been more clear about that.)

It is definitely a cute chick, and I'm looking forward to seeing more when they hatch

 

[ColtHandorf]

That chick looks rather blue to me.

That was my first thought as well. It looks Blue.

 

[Egzermalda]

Cute chick!

But it looks blue, which has me puzzled. It should not be possible to get a blue chick from that cross. So either I'm wrong about the genetics of one of the parents, or I'm wrong about the chick being blue.

"Blue" chicks look gray, and so do some chicks that grow up to be black/white colors (like some Silver Spangled Hamburg chicks I've seen), so I may be mis-interpreting what color it actually is. Hopefully it will become more obvious as the chick grows.



I see nicalandia gave genetics to put in the calculator, so I won't repeat that.

For gender, I don't think there is any way to tell at this age, from this set of parents. Males and females have all the same color options as chicks, although there may be some coloring differences as they grow up. The part you quoted, where I predicted colors of offspring, was a prediction of adult colors not chick down (maybe I should have been more clear about that.)

It is definitely a cute chick, and I'm looking forward to seeing more when they hatch

OK, so the pic I posted before was cropped from one the person hatching the eggs sent me. Below is the whole picture. As you can see there is a black chick and 2 yellow/white chicks as well as the blue. They are not sure which chick came out of which egg and they have Barnyard Mix eggs in the incubator as well as mine (6 pure Orps and 6 of the OrpX Golden Comet). Their BYM includes Silkie Crosses and "white" eggs. So they thought the 2 white chick were from the "white" eggs and the black was the Silkie Cross. So one of these 4 chicks is my Orp X GC. A second one is hatching now and has a "dark wing" according to them, second pic attached. I have some of these eggs in my incubator now at day 15, so I should know soon for myself. So, of the 4 chicks in the incubator pic, which one do you think is hers? They showed me the empty shell one of them hatched out of and it is definitely my GC's. As is the second one, hatching now.