Farming and Homesteading Heritage Poultry

[Arielle]

I think the Dorking is best as an old fashioned roasting chicken. It predates fried chicken

. The best results that I've had have been in adjusting to roasting low and slow. 300 degrees until done.

Mine get some greens in addition to feed, since they day range. The meat taste is improving as my birds improve. That may be because I'm getting used to it, after being raised on supermarket chicken or because I've learned to cook it right. My DH actually likes my home grown chicken now and he hated it at first.

Off topic, but you all who prefer corn fed beef should try some of my grass only raised Dexter. Best tasting beef ever! We can't even enjoy going to a prime steakhouse any more. My customers say the same thing and claim that it has helped their health, although I make no claims for that. My pasture is sparse and full of weeds but this old breed puts on weight just fine. The butcher always comments about the fat layer & marbling, says you only see that with corn fed. But my cattle never touch grain.
Sorry, had to brag. My chickens still need a lot of work, but I'm very proud of my preservation efforts with my cattle.

I love hearing about cattle too. So brag away. I met the dexter while living in Maine, and thought they were a pretty breed to look at, along with the belted galloways.

I was thinking of giving trotter pellets to the chickens, those in breeding pens. THis is a horse feed with a high percent of alfalfa so it is green. THe hard part is that I must paysales taxes on this but not the chicken feed.

I hope my kids will follow your husband and soon like the home grown.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

Arielle,
thanks for your input! We had already cut back on the simple carbohydrates after I developed a sensitivity to corn, wheat and barley. We are still fond of oats, potatoes and rice, though we are trying to like the complex carbs more than the simple carbs.

The thing that really sold me on "pastured" animal foods was my drop in cholesterol after a month of eating lots of free range eggs. ( http://www.motherearthnews.com/eggs.aspx )All the exercise, weight loss, stress management, and fiber in the world had not budged my cholesterol levels one bit, but those free-range eggs dropped it from the 200s-230s to normal range. Then I started reading on the differences in the saturated fatty acids in pastured animal foods versus grain fed animals, and it seemed like the obvious switch to make for human health, animal welfare, and environmental preservation.

Take care,
Angela

 

[Arielle]

Arielle,
thanks for your input! We had already cut back on the simple carbohydrates after I developed a sensitivity to corn, wheat and barley. We are still fond of oats, potatoes and rice, though we are trying to like the complex carbs more than the simple carbs.

The thing that really sold me on "pastured" animal foods was my drop in cholesterol after a month of eating lots of free range eggs. ( http://www.motherearthnews.com/eggs.aspx )All the exercise, weight loss, stress management, and fiber in the world had not budged my cholesterol levels one bit, but those free-range eggs dropped it from the 200s-230s to normal range. Then I started reading on the differences in the saturated fatty acids in pastured animal foods versus grain fed animals, and it seemed like the obvious switch to make for human health, animal welfare, and environmental preservation.

Take care,
Angela

Amazing!!! Eating eggs and meat really does thisfor most people. I love eggs and have tried MANY new recipes since getting layers. I still need to try pickled eggs!

My understanding behind many of our health issues is too much insulin. We eat a diet that uses more insulin in a day than a caveman used in a lifetime. I read of a study using a dog to inject insulin in artery of one leg and saline in the other r--athrosclerosis developed in the insulin artery. THe olther was clean and healthy.

Love having a reason to eat more meat !! I have turkey soup cooking . . . .

 

[Arielle]

I thought this post # 147 was worth repeating. There are a few questions posted after it so perhaps a discussion evolved out of this post. ( thank you BOb for writing this.)






Getting Started With Black Javas.

Here is a simple method I started over twenty years ago with Rhode Island Reds and White Plymouth Rocks that can be used on any breed of large fowl and today we are going to focus on getting started with Black Javas a great old breed that was used by early poultry farmers and used to make many of our American Breeds we have today. You dont have to have four breeding pens, but three will do. You can even do it this way if you have a partner. You have pen of two to four females which we will call pen one and the chicken house is painted red. All eggs from this hen house have a number two pencil number one on it and the date. Then you have chicken house number two its painted white. All eggs from this pen are written number two and the date. All eggs are hatched in separate incubators or you have a wire pen with one of the sets of eggs in them and once you remove the chicks from the incubator you punch a hole in tier toe to ID them the pen you want. You friend who lives two hundred miles away has pen three his building is painted blue. He writes number three on his egg and the date and the last pen is painted green for pen four. The same thing goes egg has a number four on it. He puts his eggs in a genesis Hatcher incubator and toe punches each chick for pen three and pen four. You all raise your chicks up lets say thirty chicks per breeding pen. You keep the best females for shape and color and vigor. You keep the best of these females for who starts laying first. If you have say eight pullets per pen and you get two or three that start laying two to three weeks before the rest. You breed from them. You may have two or three or four you like. Put them back in the same colored coop that they egg came out of. You order large fowl leg bands from a poultry supply house and you have red white blue and green and they are on the legs of the chicks that you raise up during their adult rearing period.

So you have two pullets in pen one three in pen two four in pen three and for in pen four. You are ready to go for the following year of breeding. Now for the males. You have four males in separate pens that are mature and each have a leg band on them for the breeding pen they came out of. You go to the pen where the four males that have red band on their legs and you look them over and you see a fellow who is big and fully feathered and crowing up a storm and he is the boss of the pen. You go and grab him and take him to pen number two and drop him on the floor. Then you go to pen number two and look over the males on this pen. You pick out two nice males that are a tossup each one could be in the breeding pen. You put the two males in box and put them in the back of your car and drive up to your friends house and put them in separate coops to look over. Your friend says I like ckl number ten I dont know why but he just has want I would like to have in my flock. So you put this male in pen number three and leave the second male in the conditioning coop for a spare in case something happens to male number one. Next you go to his pen of four nice ckls that have blue bands on them pen number three. You look them over and you see a male with band number six and another with band number twelve and you both grab these males and look them over in the conditioning pens and you say to your selves lets go with number six and then you go to pen number four the green pen and drop him on the floor and you are done with his matings for the year. Next thing you got to do is go to the pen with the green leg bands and look over the males in it. You see a male with number one and number three on their legs and you grab them out and put them in the conditioning pens. After looking hard you decide I think I will go with male number ten and male number fourteen. I cannot make up my mind which one I will go with at first but I think I will put one in my Red Pen one when I get home and keep the other and put him in the pen about five weeks after the first male is in and see if one male does better than the other.

So you take the two males put them in the box put them in the car and head home. You get home and your put male number ten that has a green band from pen four in your red chicken coop with your pen one females. The other male is kept in your conditioning coop to use latter as a spare and two shares half the mating season with the other male. You will give the pen one females a rest of about ten days after you pull out the first male to make sure his semen is free but remember they are mating a clutch of eggs and once the clutch of eggs are mated the other males semen cannot cross in a mess things up. Its not a big deal in this method you are not going to hurt yourself as this is a family mating. Do you know hatcheries will flock mate with twenty females and two to three males in a pen. So dont get head strong over this issue.

Now you repeat this over again as I stated in the beginning of the article. Put the pen number on the egg hatch those in separate incubators or in pedigree wire baskets. Toes punch your chicks and ID them as soon as they hatch and watch the chicks in the brooder box for the first two to three weeks and ID these chicks for fast feather and early development. Watch your roosters when they start to crow and put down on a 5x7 card their band number and the day they start to crow. Cull out all slow growing and maturing birds as you want vigor and your number one trait, then breed type or shape then egg production then color. \\

Summary: This is a very easy system for the beginner. I use it with my bantams and I only have pair or trio matings hatch about 20 chicks per female and only keep the best chicks that are better than their parents. This way you are breeding them up each season and improving them as if you where scoring them under the old point scoring system used in the 1920. You need to get you an APA standard of perfection and read the good points and bad points for your breed. You need to take the pictures of the standard and make copies of them and put them in a frame and put them in our chicken house so you can look at the pictures in contrast to your birds and one day your minds eye in your brain will be able to spot a bird with a trait or a type you are looking for. This is the way to become a master breeder of your favorite breed. You go slowly at first dont hatch too many chicks that you cant afford to raise. You must cull hard as you are only keeping two to four females per mating and you are only keeping two males per mating. Go small stay with pairs or trios if you want. Large fowl cost a lot of money to raise and maintain per year. Stay down the middle of the road. Dont get caught up in fads like leg color or points on a comb. Dont get caught up in color as your first three to five years you are breeding genes for breed type and high egg production. Also, in doing this you will see improved feather quality and your birds will have tight webbing in their back feathers the shirts on some of the breeds will not drop down to the floor but will be cared high as the picture in the standard of perfection shows you. You can share your surplus birds with others and maybe if you can trust them you can get birds from them later to cross into your closed flock of families but dont count on it as most people you share your birds with will sin and outcross other strains onto your strain thinking they will hit the jackpot and get a good bird to win with. This is Russian Rullet breeding and it wont work and before you know it these folks are out of the breed or out of chickens in no time. You alone or a good partner can take a flock of say Black Java large fowl and in three to five years have these birds improved using this method. If you wish to learn how to even speed up this method of super typed Javas you can use a method called the Hogan Method of breeding which a book was written in the 1920s on the subject. It works as the Buck Eye movement ten years ago was based on this and they took near hatchery typed birds and turned them into wonderful fowl true to the Heritage Breed that they were without crossing and trying to reinvent the breed.

I hope you will take this old method of Rotational Line Breeding which I have used for over twenty years which I learned from a commercial Turkey farmer in Wisconsin. They use it in their farming methods and they can go on forever without crossing new germ plasma into their strain. May the gods in poultry heaven watch over you and keep you from straying away from the successes that they passed onto us during their day on earth into his glory days of Heritage Poultry Farming. Robert Blosl



I killed two birds with one stone. I told you how to breed any breed of large fowl that even a eight grader could undertand and I wrote a article for the Java Clubs first newsletter which they asked me how to do. I could take a scoll bus and grap four of you and we could go across the county and pick out what ever breed you want in the fall and put the birds in the box and use this method to line breed your strain and in five years you will have improved breed up birds and you will have a flock of Heritage Fowl that any one would be proud to own.

Just dont get caught up in one phase like eggs or meat. These chickens you want are dual purpose chickens just like a Short Horn Cow. You have to breed them for meat, eggs and looks and then you have done every one a good job while you where her working on the breed. No buddy wants to get a breed that you say you worked on for ten years and they look like muts. They want something that looks like the breed did thirty to fifty years ago. I hope I painted the picture for you. Now I can go to Wally World and buy something to reward myself.

bob

Edited by Robert Blosl - 2/13/11 at 1:07pm

 

[Arielle]

I am still reading the ealry threads and a discussion of the SOP has me thinking and thinking.

Here is how I have started viewing the SOP. It was the goals established by a committee representing the breed and it was most likely made up of breeders of that fowl. The SOP was written out as the ideal for that bird. THe offspring will show traits that can vary considerably. THe purpose of the SOP is to have a guidline, a goal to shoot for. THE goal to shoot for. In the early years of the breed, at least as I have read for the sussex, the birds were not very uniform and in fact a breeder of a well establish chicken referred to the sussex as a mutt or a word equivalent to mutt. In the book I was reading, sorry I can't remember th author, the sussex breed entered on a long journey over the next 15 years to imporve and make more of the birds like the SOP. AND they still had more work ahead of them.

My point is that there is variety in any specific trait and while the goal and judgement is the SOP, not all the birds will meet that goal; BOb has mentioned a score of 92 specificially, so I will use that as a point of comparison. SHould all the birds in a flock be at least a 92, or is that generally unrealistic and it is a few that are the best of the best in a flock that is graded a 92 or more. IMHO, if I can breed a group of birds, and have more and more of the birds, reach the 92 points then I might consider myself maintaining the breed and possibly improving upon them. MOst of the birds will be close to the SOP but not over a 92 and still be a functional, productive contributor to the farm. WHere I do get lost is the fine line between SQ and utility. ( UnlessBOb has put that bar at 92). IMO having more utilty birds on a farm maybe ok and even necessary at least at the begining of the journey.

Please bear with me as I write this out. I struggle with what my goals are and how to get there. AND often IF I can get there. I often feel like this endevor is more than I am capable of; yet I see the value in keeping the old breeds to their original intent. ANd more stewards are needed. I enjoy my hatchery stock of BO, but they do not have the genetics of the heritage BO. A completely different line. I'm still trying to figure out what breeds and which line will best suit my goals.

Comments welcome.

 

[Cedarknob]

I am still reading the ealry threads and a discussion of the SOP has me thinking and thinking.

Here is how I have started viewing the SOP. It was the goals established by a committee representing the breed and it was most likely made up of breeders of that fowl. The SOP was written out as the ideal for that bird. THe offspring will show traits that can vary considerably. THe purpose of the SOP is to have a guidline, a goal to shoot for. THE goal to shoot for. In the early years of the breed, at least as I have read for the sussex, the birds were not very uniform and in fact a breeder of a well establish chicken referred to the sussex as a mutt or a word equivalent to mutt. In the book I was reading, sorry I can't remember th author, the sussex breed entered on a long journey over the next 15 years to imporve and make more of the birds like the SOP. AND they still had more work ahead of them.

My point is that there is variety in any specific trait and while the goal and judgement is the SOP, not all the birds will meet that goal; BOb has mentioned a score of 92 specificially, so I will use that as a point of comparison. SHould all the birds in a flock be at least a 92, or is that generally unrealistic and it is a few that are the best of the best in a flock that is graded a 92 or more. IMHO, if I can breed a group of birds, and have more and more of the birds, reach the 92 points then I might consider myself maintaining the breed and possibly improving upon them. MOst of the birds will be close to the SOP but not over a 92 and still be a functional, productive contributor to the farm. WHere I do get lost is the fine line between SQ and utility. ( UnlessBOb has put that bar at 92). IMO having more utilty birds on a farm maybe ok and even necessary at least at the begining of the journey.

Please bear with me as I write this out. I struggle with what my goals are and how to get there. AND often IF I can get there. I often feel like this endevor is more than I am capable of; yet I see the value in keeping the old breeds to their original intent. ANd more stewards are needed. I enjoy my hatchery stock of BO, but they do not have the genetics of the heritage BO. A completely different line. I'm still trying to figure out what breeds and which line will best suit my goals.

Comments welcome.

I find my joy in the journey as much or more than setting the destination and saying "I got there"........................... in fact I'm free to change my destination point completely or change the route according to current conditions and still be on the road and happy. As long I am breeding my true Cornish both for their great meaty carcass and towards the SOP I have achieved my goal plus kept a great heritage breed alive and serving the purpose they were designed to serve. Somewhere behind hatchery Cornish are the same birds mine came from, but they sure aren't going to dress out as nice, or do as well at a show either if I ever get to one. Since mine are my choice for a meat flock, to me it just wouldn't make sense to have kept those first chicks I ordered from a hatchery and attempted to breed them up into a great flock of meat birds over the next 10 or 20 years, . [Too old and too many miles on my body to figure I have that much time anyway.] I ate them and moved on. LOL I have a friend that raises hatchery birds and mutts and enjoys them every bit as I do my heritage birds, and I think that's great,

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I always had Single Combs. In my climate that is a good breed in the cold climate the Rose Comb takes the cold better. Warren would be my first start you should be able to drive to his place one day in the spring and pick up some eggs and bring them home or some started chicks. Crossing them onto SIngle Combs can be done. You got to breed out the hollow combs on the Rose Combs for a few years. The best bet is to get the right stuff and get a mentor to help you. He is one of the best. Many go the off beat route and then in three years give up the breed. Its very common in people who get Reds. Thats why ther are so few people to go to who have had them for ten or 20 years.

I completely agree with Bob. If you can avoid dealing with the troule of an outcross, do. I have two varieties that I outcrossed multiple years ago, and I would still contend that I needed to, but there was a lot of culling along the way. In recent years our Anconas have been placing on Champion Row, which has been rather cool. We've won CH Mediterranean, Reserve CHampion Large Fowl, and Champion Largefowl. It's taken a lot of work. If you can start with a strain like Warren's, it will save you a lot of culling. Now's the time, too, to get some stock from him.

Come to the North Eastern Poultry Congress in Springfield, MA. There are already 2200 entries and more are expected. It's in a couple of weekends. Here's the link: Congress If you'd like to spend the night, the Sheraton is the sponsoring hotel and reservations are due by 1/2 for the discounted rate. There are seminars to attend: one by Paul Kroll that should be especially interesting. Warren Carlow is one of the judges. I wouldn't miss this opportunity. If you're in the North East, this is the place to be Jan. 12th and 13th.

I am still reading the ealry threads and a discussion of the SOP has me thinking and thinking.

Here is how I have started viewing the SOP. It was the goals established by a committee representing the breed and it was most likely made up of breeders of that fowl. The SOP was written out as the ideal for that bird. THe offspring will show traits that can vary considerably. THe purpose of the SOP is to have a guidline, a goal to shoot for. THE goal to shoot for. In the early years of the breed, at least as I have read for the sussex, the birds were not very uniform and in fact a breeder of a well establish chicken referred to the sussex as a mutt or a word equivalent to mutt. In the book I was reading, sorry I can't remember th author, the sussex breed entered on a long journey over the next 15 years to imporve and make more of the birds like the SOP. AND they still had more work ahead of them.

My point is that there is variety in any specific trait and while the goal and judgement is the SOP, not all the birds will meet that goal; BOb has mentioned a score of 92 specificially, so I will use that as a point of comparison. SHould all the birds in a flock be at least a 92, or is that generally unrealistic and it is a few that are the best of the best in a flock that is graded a 92 or more. IMHO, if I can breed a group of birds, and have more and more of the birds, reach the 92 points then I might consider myself maintaining the breed and possibly improving upon them. MOst of the birds will be close to the SOP but not over a 92 and still be a functional, productive contributor to the farm. WHere I do get lost is the fine line between SQ and utility. ( UnlessBOb has put that bar at 92). IMO having more utilty birds on a farm maybe ok and even necessary at least at the begining of the journey.

Please bear with me as I write this out. I struggle with what my goals are and how to get there. AND often IF I can get there. I often feel like this endevor is more than I am capable of; yet I see the value in keeping the old breeds to their original intent. ANd more stewards are needed. I enjoy my hatchery stock of BO, but they do not have the genetics of the heritage BO. A completely different line. I'm still trying to figure out what breeds and which line will best suit my goals.

Comments welcome.

Where your birds are in relation to the SOP is where they are. The goal would be to have all your breeders as high up in the point range as possible, but that may take time depending on what you're working with. Also, some birds are used for breeders because of a specific trait they might have, even if they are lacking in other traits. When combined in specific pairings this trait might be valuable.

You can certainly do this!!!

Just restrict yourself to one breed and one variety of that breed. Get the best stock you can. Warren's RCs would be awesome! They'll knock your socks off in quality.

I find my joy in the journey as much or more than setting the destination and saying "I got there"........................... in fact I'm free to change my destination point completely or change the route according to current conditions and still be on the road and happy. As long I am breeding my true Cornish both for their great meaty carcass and towards the SOP I have achieved my goal plus kept a great heritage breed alive and serving the purpose they were designed to serve. Somewhere behind hatchery Cornish are the same birds mine came from, but they sure aren't going to dress out as nice, or do as well at a show either if I ever get to one. Since mine are my choice for a meat flock, to me it just wouldn't make sense to have kept those first chicks I ordered from a hatchery and attempted to breed them up into a great flock of meat birds over the next 10 or 20 years, . [Too old and too many miles on my body to figure I have that much time anyway.] I ate them and moved on. LOL I have a friend that raises hatchery birds and mutts and enjoys them every bit as I do my heritage birds, and I think that's great,

Sometimes starting over's the best thing. We've done it with La Fleche, and so far it was worth it, indeed.

 

[ashandvine]

The sites says the Congress is the weekend of Jan 19 and 20... not the weekend before which you posted Yellow House. Did I misread something or was that a mistake?? I hope to be there. Its my daughter's first birthday though. IDK if that is a good thing or not to tell her when she is older. It would be nice to meet a few BYC personalities in person... conversations could be instant!

 

[Arielle]

The sites says the Congress is the weekend of Jan 19 and 20... not the weekend before which you posted Yellow House. Did I misread something or was that a mistake?? I hope to be there. Its my daughter's first birthday though. IDK if that is a good thing or not to tell her when she is older. It would be nice to meet a few BYC personalities in person... conversations could be instant!

My kids get over such things--I was having surgery on my son's first birthday. IT is what it is. We often don't celebrate on the exact date for many reasons. SO you MUST COME -- how else can we meet??

 

[Arielle]

Quote: THanks for the inspiration Yellow House. I'm narrowing the field.but still keeping my options open. I still have lots to learn.