Fermented Feeds

[Sourdough1938]

OK, I give up! What is "mother" and what is "acv". I am sure it is on here somewhere but there are 380 some posts.

 

[quail325]

(Acv) is Apple Cider Vinegar Mother is the culture in the vinegar, Braggs is the brand name of the vinegar with "Mother" that I use.

 

[kpgoldstar]

OK, I give up! What is "mother" and what is "acv". I am sure it is on here somewhere but there are 380 some posts.

Quail is correct. You also don't need ACV to start a batch of FF. Simply feed and water, wait 3-4 days and it will ferment. Some use ACV to speed up the process.

 

[Sourdough1938]

Gotcha! Thanks, everything makes sense now! Also you might notice that I can't count or remember, which is a problem without a solution when you get old and have attention deficit syn. your whole life. But I was only 10 posts off! (380 I remembered as opposed to 370 actual) lol

 

[matthewlyons]

similar to any cultured fermentation the best start is an established one. (look in your cupboard) BRAGGS all natural apple cider is a great one (cloudiness/strands on the bottom of the bottle is a great indication of natural fermentation but not the last). I have known farmers to use their sourdough, their dandelion ferment even. at a certain age of each "mother" begins to eat the fructose (naturally produced sugar) and will turn the feed "alcoholic". if your "strict" use a "fracto meter" (measures sugar which turns to alcohol) i"ve tried a few different methods and to what i can tell ive had my best success with: .1. collect a mother 2.add 1quart "mother" to 2 gallon unchlorinated h20 (if you derive water from a well collect it and ALWAYS LET IT SIT FOR 24 HRS. chlorine will evaporate at that point. 3. start with a smaller batch (again an established "mother is the best". 4. i use 3 pounds of feed per four gallons to start.) 5. acquire a large rectangular container with a tight lid remember the three pounds is absorbing the water to it"s full extent. 5. mix 3 pounds feed with four gallons unchlorinated water and 3/4 gallon "mother". 6. cover let sit three days. 7. at this point when you open the container you may see bubbles 8. stir, recover. 9. between the sixth and seventh day you"ll notice "expansion in your feed" (and a slight sourdough smell) 10. strain off no more than sixty percent of the feed and use as you would normally. 11. once you have created this "environment" add to it each time you take out from it. the. amount that your taking out isn't enough to disrupt the "fermentation in the rest an will not delay the feed from overtaking the "new" feed. stir continuously each time you remove some......
it"s an age old technique mankind has used ( sauerkraut, sourdough, kambocha,. natural fermentation produces natural probiotics which greatly helps the digestive system as well as nutrient intake (think of it as food thats already partly broken down for your body to absorb without the wasting energy to do so).

 

[LindaB220]

Apple cider vinegar is a great starter. But not absolutely necessary. All you need is feed, water and cover with a towel or top loosely Stir daily for 4 days and the feed will be fermented. It comes from the air. I add enough water for it to be a thick oatmeal. Not necessary to cover with water. Different strokes. Others like to cover with water and strain, but I'm lazy and I want to do it the easy way. However, I wanted mine to be faster so I started with 2 T. ACV. Didn't need to add more. A really good site for answers:

http://tikktok.wordpress.com/2014/04/13/fermented-feed-faq/



Good luck.

 

[pwesepolis]

I tried FF earlier. At first girls dont like it, maybe it's too soggy maybe it's new taste. now i mixed FF with some dry food, they get excited as they watch me mix~~~ then they gobble all up.

 

[LindaB220]

I tried FF earlier. At first girls dont like it, maybe it's too soggy maybe it's new taste. now i mixed FF with some dry food, they get excited as they watch me mix~~~ then they gobble all up.

Yes, it's just getting it to the right consistancy. I made mine like pourable thin peanut butter and had to start adding.

And by the way

 

[Don P]

Fermenting Chicken feed
I have been raising hens for 20 years along with a few other animals on our chemical free 8 acres. I have about 30 hens now, 10 that are about to start laying and then will cycle off the 3 year old ones whose egg whites begin to get runny, or they slow down in laying, though I like those big old Jumbo size eggs even if they have some odd shell designs.

Along with Non-GMO organic Grains and seeds I have been feeding sprouted grain/seeds and fodder and more recently started fermenting and have experienced and researched a few things that may help others who are fermenting.
For New hens to our farm who are not allowed out to pasture freely until they get familiarized with their new home and the other hens so they have almost no fighting for pecking order when we release them, and pullets which we keep separate until they start laying, these get wheat, pea, BOSS and Barely fodder so they get some greens and lots of fermented whole grains. The rest of the pastured hens just get it as a snack once in a while since it is a lot of work for no significant nutritional benefit, just more water and less protein in it and they have a pasture for green live food. If you don't have grass, then some fodder is a good idea.

TWO WAYS TO FERMENT
Some people say to use Apple Cider Vinegar with the mother and add to water. That would be an acetic acid ferment instead of a lacto ferment.
Yeast converts sugar to alcohol and it is not desirable to have a lot of it in feed. Acetobacter bacteria convert alcohol to acetic acid which is the main ingredient in vinegar; this process is aerobic, needs to be open air uncovered and may be good for some vegetables.
The vinegar Acetic acid is not as beneficial in breaking down grains nor are yogurt or whey bacteria which need higher temps to grow and can mold.

The Lactic cultures compete with the Acetic Acid cultures so you want to choose one or the other. Either lacto ferment or vinegar acetic acid ferment. But trying to do both is less effective. Yes it still works, I have done it also, and sometimes I start a new batch with a little ACV mother in it to keep the undesirable bacteria down if I am using uncovered plastic tubs, then gradually add more water and dilute the acetic acid away and get the LABs (Lactic Acid Bacteria) dominant.

LABS produce lactic acid which will prevent the growth of unwanted yeasts and molds and provide the best pre-digestion of the grains for the animals.
Each strain of bacteria break down different substances in food. So a broad spectrum of probiotics that breakdown the specific food or grains you are fermenting is best. Acetic acid Bacteria that do not break down grain are not useful in feed.

If you are getting a waxy white scum on top of water when you ferment it is Kahm yeast, not mold and not harmful to the feed or ferment. Kahm yeast is common in fermented products. I often have Kahm on my ferment tubs and it is no problem because of how I do the process. But it competes with the LAB and can throw off the balance of LAB to Yeast in the lacto-fermented feed that is what predigests grain for the healthiest chickens or people if you ferment for yourself.

Feed with Kahm on it is not spoiled or bad and the yeast can be skimmed off the top of the ferment. Like any bacteria or yeast, it gives its own taste to feed and it gives a strong odor. If you can’t get it all removed and a little is left in won't be too bad. Kahm can develop as the lactic acid bacteria consume all the sugar and the pH of the ferment drops. This layer of yeast may have a textured surface almost resembling spaghetti stands. The easiest thing to do is simply remove the white layer and discard it as soon as you notice it forming.

Once the lacto ferment is well established the lactic acid will keep the kahm yeast from forming.
The most common reasons for the development of kahm yeast are: not enough liquid to completely cover all the grains or the container is not sealed but it should not be air tight, or the temperature is too warm. If it persists after the ferment is strong, then cover the liquid as you start a batch.
Skim off anything floating on top of the liquid like floating grain or husks and be sure the liquid is over the top of all the grain which will often help prevent Kahm yeast and mold.

Adding Trace Mineral salt to the initial batch will give the LABs time to establish dominance. Just add a little or use feed with salt added. Or add more culture to get the LABs a head start over the yeast.

Some hard core feed fermenters actually like getting flies into their ferment. They lay eggs which become maggots which are a great food for their hens.
One exception to yeasts may be Saccharomyces which is a good yeast or fungus that breaks down sugar, common baker’s or brewers yeast. Saccharomyces boulardii is called a "probiotic," a friendly organism that helps to fight off disease-causing organisms in the gut such as bacteria and yeast. Saccharomyces yeasts can form symbiotic matrices with bacteria, and are used to produce kombucha, kefir and ginger beer and are in better feed vitamin probiotic formulas. It will produce some alcohol but that will evaporate off and as long as the LABs are dominant this is fine.

Many feeds have Fetrell's Vitamin mineral booster coated on to the feed with canola or some oil and the better Fetrell nutrient also has probiotics in it also and costs a lot more. Check your feed label to see if it has probiotics like Lactobacillus. If your feed does not have these LABs in it, I suggest buying a good probiotic at the health store and using it yourself at bedtime and adding a couple caps to the ferment liquid as a starter. Be sure to get one designed specifically to break down grains, or has Saccharomyces and Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactobacillus Enterococcus faecium, Bacillus coagulans, Bacillus licheniformis, and Bacillus subtilis or a good broad spectrum like Garden of Life Primal Defense.
PROCESS
I use 4 plastic tubs or trays that came in a roller cabinet and I start a new batch each day from the oldest batch. After removing all the fermented grain except a little left in as starter, I add new grains and seeds to the tub and add a little new purified water to cover about 1" over all grain and I add a little mash feed which ferments quicker. I let it sit 3-4 days as I use up all the fermented feed that is in each of the other trays, 1 tray per day, cycling them the same way. This way there is no chance of the fermented food getting real old and loosing nutrient value, which it will.

The other reason to use up all the feed in a batch is: if you keep adding dry grain or feed to the ferment mix each day after removing some to feed, then much of the feed you pull out the next day will not be fermented but will be the new feed that has only been in 1 day. It takes 3-4 days to begin fermentation.

Since I keep the oldest ferment and start a new batch with that liquid the ferment continues to get stronger each cycle and starts faster than if a complete fresh a water start over was made. Its kind if a half way process.

You should see CO2 bubbles coming to the surface of the water which shows fermentation is going on, the LABs are converting the starch and sugar to lactic acid. No bubbles, you need to add more LAB culture.
Be sure to clean the tubs if they get food stuck on the sides and get moldy, save the ferment liquid in a jar and wash tub well then refill.

Excellent articles on the micro-organisms and why to ferment.

http://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/2012/09/22/science-of-fermented-feed/
http://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/2012/09/30/microorganisms-at-work/

 

[Joanmcm]

Thanks Don for the info. This is good to know. I cut off my laying hens FF when the bugs and grass came back after a long winter. The hens did very well on it through the winter. Laid eggs during extremely harsh weather with no add'l light or heat in their pen.

The hens have a large fenced in area (40x40 for 7 chickens) and are allowed out of that onto 5 acres for a couple of hours before sunset while the people and dog are outside. Too many hawks here to allow them out all day. I figure the hawks had time to scrounge up a meal elsewhere by that time of day and the people and dog would discourage them a bit.