Free Legal Advice Is Worth What You Pay For It
- Thread starter BigPeep
- Start date
I think the answer is find like minded people to fight for your right to do as you please, on your own land. We have a right to farm law here, but because I only have one acre, I do not qualify. It needs to be three or more. My land is zoned farming/residential and is a legal and proper lot, so therefore I am able to keep 100 poultry. They can only be for personal use, no processing on site. The ordinance actually begins " IN order to maintain the rural character...." Good folks here in town. I shouldn't have to pay yet ANOTHER tax to keep some birds or it would be cheaper to go buy chicken at Walmart.
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Check out your county recorder's website; look for the plat for your subdivision as well as the CC&Rs. You should be able to find dates and hopefully all documents. If the developer created the HOA (very common), then they should have copies of the CC&Rs. Contact them and ask for a copy. You mention that you pay assessments; how long has this gone on? If since you bought your home, then there was indeed an HOA in existance at that time.
State laws differ, and without knowing your state cannot even begin to know how balanced the laws are or are not. In Arizona, one cannot require membership in an HOA after a property has been sold; however I do know of a couple of cases where there were lawsuits about that issue; in both cases there were some sticky issues that made the whole situations not very clear cut.
Check out your county recorder's website; look for the plat for your subdivision as well as the CC&Rs. You should be able to find dates and hopefully all documents. If the developer created the HOA (very common), then they should have copies of the CC&Rs. Contact them and ask for a copy. You mention that you pay assessments; how long has this gone on? If since you bought your home, then there was indeed an HOA in existance at that time.
State laws differ, and without knowing your state cannot even begin to know how balanced the laws are or are not. In Arizona, one cannot require membership in an HOA after a property has been sold; however I do know of a couple of cases where there were lawsuits about that issue; in both cases there were some sticky issues that made the whole situations not very clear cut.
I was one of those people who did check all of the ordinances, but didn't hire and attorney or call code enforcement in advance. Don't think that becasue you do not see anything in the Animal Section or in Zoning portion of the code of ordinances that means you are OK to get chicks. Much to my surprise in an amended portion of the zoning code called "Miscellaneous Provisions" were two little pieces of code than when married to code in other places in zoning and in the definitions was interpretted to mean that backyard poultry were not allowed. Since then I have spoken with code enforcement officers in all 25 municipalities in my county and they have all been very reasonable and willing to help when I have asked for the code related to backyard poultry keeping in theri town. If you ask them to give you a reference to the specific code in your community, you can look it up and read it yourself. Code Enforcement will also tell you the current interpretation of that code and then you can decide what you would like to do. I don't think you really need to hire an attorney unless the code is vague and/or you plan on fighting the current interpretation.
- Jul 10, 2010
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We did everything we could before we got our 5 girls a year ago: spoke to our neighbors who all ok'd it, called Fountain's Zoning Office and here is what happened: We spoke to a lady at the Fountain Zoning office and she explained we could have chickens, up to 8, no rooster. We explained that we live within the City limits of Fountain and wanted to make sure we are 'legal' getting our girls. After we got the OK, we build a coop and raised our girls until in October Code Enforcement contacted us about our chickens. We were surprised because we were told it is legal. We even found the phone record when we called (the conversation was not recorded)... anyways, we were told to get rid of our chickens but CE has been amazing to work with and they have given us grace periods because we could not find a new home for them which was adequate. So my next step is City Council! Keep your fingers crossed!
- Feb 13, 2010
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This post evidences a mindset that we should have to ask for permission from the government to do things. A better mindset would be, "The government should not restrict my right to do things, unless those things infringe on the rights of other people."
Shame on the citizens of California for permitting a political climate where people believe they must in effect bribe their elected officials with additional tax revenue, in order to get those officials to do the right thing.
Wouldn't it be great if the City of Sacramento, instead of taxing the act of chicken-keeping (which is what a $50/year permit amounts to), would instead simply pass an ordinance explicitly allowing chicken-keeping WITH NO PERMIT REQUIRED so long as it's limited to methods which don't bother others (enclosed, no roosters, limits on # of chickens, etc.)
After all, the keeping of chickens by its residents costs the city nothing, while at the same time benefiting those who keep chickens (e.g., the voters).
You shouldn't have to GIVE something (taxes) in exchange for something you WANT (keeping chickens) when keeping chickens imposes no costs on anyone else.
It's possible to "be into your community and stuff" without advocating for yet another tax on your neighbors who want to keep chickens.
Also, to say that "chicken permits...would help bring in revenues and save jobs....." is mistaken. Taxing people for something that they should be able to do for free will tend drive people out of the city...which tends to reduce property values (reducing the tax base) and eliminate jobs...it all adds up. Remember, a tax does not create wealth. It just takes wealth away from the people who generated it and gives it to the government to waste, or to spend for the benefit of people who did not generate that wealth.
Just sayin'. No personal criticism intended.
This post evidences a mindset that we should have to ask for permission from the government to do things. A better mindset would be, "The government should not restrict my right to do things, unless those things infringe on the rights of other people."
Shame on the citizens of California for permitting a political climate where people believe they must in effect bribe their elected officials with additional tax revenue, in order to get those officials to do the right thing.
Wouldn't it be great if the City of Sacramento, instead of taxing the act of chicken-keeping (which is what a $50/year permit amounts to), would instead simply pass an ordinance explicitly allowing chicken-keeping WITH NO PERMIT REQUIRED so long as it's limited to methods which don't bother others (enclosed, no roosters, limits on # of chickens, etc.)
After all, the keeping of chickens by its residents costs the city nothing, while at the same time benefiting those who keep chickens (e.g., the voters).
You shouldn't have to GIVE something (taxes) in exchange for something you WANT (keeping chickens) when keeping chickens imposes no costs on anyone else.
It's possible to "be into your community and stuff" without advocating for yet another tax on your neighbors who want to keep chickens.
Also, to say that "chicken permits...would help bring in revenues and save jobs....." is mistaken. Taxing people for something that they should be able to do for free will tend drive people out of the city...which tends to reduce property values (reducing the tax base) and eliminate jobs...it all adds up. Remember, a tax does not create wealth. It just takes wealth away from the people who generated it and gives it to the government to waste, or to spend for the benefit of people who did not generate that wealth.
Just sayin'. No personal criticism intended.
- Nov 14, 2008
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Hah, politics and laws!
Three years ago I checked our towns ordinances carefully, pigs, goats, horses, etc were prohibited, there were regulations on dogs & cats. The planning & zoning administrator said we could have the chickens as they were not prohibited. In order to not disturb the neighbors, we only got a few hens, we have a nice clean yard and henhouse and my birds are never out and roaming. Most of our neighbors enjoy our hens, they make less noise than the neighborhood children and dogs, and do NBOT smell.
Than yesterday we got a letter telling us that we had to get rid of them. According to the city attorney that "the raising of chickens would be allowed if it was expressly permitted in the code" .
SO i have reviewed the city codes and found that mailboxes are not expressly permited, parking in the street is not expressly permitted, fountains are not expressly permitted, gardens are not expressly permitted, and the list goes on!!!
I have already spoken to a lawyer and former judge, who says that would make anything the city arbritarily deemed not permitted as illegal.
Well folks, what do you think?
Chicken Lil
Three years ago I checked our towns ordinances carefully, pigs, goats, horses, etc were prohibited, there were regulations on dogs & cats. The planning & zoning administrator said we could have the chickens as they were not prohibited. In order to not disturb the neighbors, we only got a few hens, we have a nice clean yard and henhouse and my birds are never out and roaming. Most of our neighbors enjoy our hens, they make less noise than the neighborhood children and dogs, and do NBOT smell.
Than yesterday we got a letter telling us that we had to get rid of them. According to the city attorney that "the raising of chickens would be allowed if it was expressly permitted in the code" .
SO i have reviewed the city codes and found that mailboxes are not expressly permited, parking in the street is not expressly permitted, fountains are not expressly permitted, gardens are not expressly permitted, and the list goes on!!!
I have already spoken to a lawyer and former judge, who says that would make anything the city arbritarily deemed not permitted as illegal.
Well folks, what do you think?
Chicken Lil
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If they are telling you they are illegal, aren't they also required to tell you EXACTLY what city code/ordinance you are violating? I would ask for the specific code or ordinance #.
If they are telling you they are illegal, aren't they also required to tell you EXACTLY what city code/ordinance you are violating? I would ask for the specific code or ordinance #.
- Nov 14, 2008
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In reply, they City of Princeton ordinance only refers to having poultry roam the strret freely. My hens are confined to a large yard, with a privacy fence.
When we first checked the ordinances we also contacted the zoning administrator and was told there were no ordinances prohibiting the raising of hens. Now, 3 yrs later the cityt attorney has said "the raising of chickens would be allowed if it was EXPRESSLY PERMITTED in the code".
Following that logic I have been reading the city codes and found the following is not expressly permitted.... mailboxes, fountains, gardens, parking in the street, etc, so this would mean these things are prohibited.
Small town politics at it's best!!! We have a new neighbor who thinks having chickens is uncouth, and they are friends with the city attorney.
See why I am going to fihgt this bull$%%$. Excuse my language but I am really angry.
When we first checked the ordinances we also contacted the zoning administrator and was told there were no ordinances prohibiting the raising of hens. Now, 3 yrs later the cityt attorney has said "the raising of chickens would be allowed if it was EXPRESSLY PERMITTED in the code".
Following that logic I have been reading the city codes and found the following is not expressly permitted.... mailboxes, fountains, gardens, parking in the street, etc, so this would mean these things are prohibited.
Small town politics at it's best!!! We have a new neighbor who thinks having chickens is uncouth, and they are friends with the city attorney.
See why I am going to fihgt this bull$%%$. Excuse my language but I am really angry.
Hah, politics and laws!
Three years ago I checked our towns ordinances carefully, pigs, goats, horses, etc were prohibited, there were regulations on dogs & cats. The planning & zoning administrator said we could have the chickens as they were not prohibited. In order to not disturb the neighbors, we only got a few hens, we have a nice clean yard and henhouse and my birds are never out and roaming. Most of our neighbors enjoy our hens, they make less noise than the neighborhood children and dogs, and do NBOT smell.
Than yesterday we got a letter telling us that we had to get rid of them. According to the city attorney that "the raising of chickens would be allowed if it was expressly permitted in the code" .
SO i have reviewed the city codes and found that mailboxes are not expressly permited, parking in the street is not expressly permitted, fountains are not expressly permitted, gardens are not expressly permitted, and the list goes on!!!
I have already spoken to a lawyer and former judge, who says that would make anything the city arbritarily deemed not permitted as illegal.
Well folks, what do you think?
Has anything further developed? I notice this post is a month old. If it were me I would make a copy of the letter, put the original in a drawer, then head to City hall to find out who exactly directed this letter to be sent, then I would whip out my tape recorder and ask them to explain how that works. After they finished, if they even tried, I tear the letter in half and hand it to them, laugh a little, then walk away. I would then write a letter to the editor, ridiculing them, by name, for their truly bizarre and dictatorial mindset.
It might even be interesting to see if "City Halls" are an expressly permitted use on the type of property it's sitting on. If not . . .good thing I don't have a Bulldozer! "Civic Duty" and all.
Three years ago I checked our towns ordinances carefully, pigs, goats, horses, etc were prohibited, there were regulations on dogs & cats. The planning & zoning administrator said we could have the chickens as they were not prohibited. In order to not disturb the neighbors, we only got a few hens, we have a nice clean yard and henhouse and my birds are never out and roaming. Most of our neighbors enjoy our hens, they make less noise than the neighborhood children and dogs, and do NBOT smell.
Than yesterday we got a letter telling us that we had to get rid of them. According to the city attorney that "the raising of chickens would be allowed if it was expressly permitted in the code" .
SO i have reviewed the city codes and found that mailboxes are not expressly permited, parking in the street is not expressly permitted, fountains are not expressly permitted, gardens are not expressly permitted, and the list goes on!!!
I have already spoken to a lawyer and former judge, who says that would make anything the city arbritarily deemed not permitted as illegal.
Well folks, what do you think?
Has anything further developed? I notice this post is a month old. If it were me I would make a copy of the letter, put the original in a drawer, then head to City hall to find out who exactly directed this letter to be sent, then I would whip out my tape recorder and ask them to explain how that works. After they finished, if they even tried, I tear the letter in half and hand it to them, laugh a little, then walk away. I would then write a letter to the editor, ridiculing them, by name, for their truly bizarre and dictatorial mindset.
It might even be interesting to see if "City Halls" are an expressly permitted use on the type of property it's sitting on. If not . . .good thing I don't have a Bulldozer! "Civic Duty" and all.
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