Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[neopolitancrazy]

I was reviewing the supposed possible outcomes...of a Delaware re-creation project. I didn't see any "laced" possibilities. ...

In researching lacing earlier this year, I learned that eb, Brown (from the NHs) is the basis for most single and double lacing, as well as partridge/pencilling. Obtaining a single-laced bird like your female also requires the pattern gene, (BR, begins the lacing,) melanizer, (BR, completes the lacing,) and Columbian, (NH, sends the color to the ends of the chicken or the ends of its feathers,) with your eb. If I read it right, to get a Delaware, you need the barring gene, silver, and melanizer from the BR, plus the columbian from the NH, minus the pattern gene from the BR. My source (Van Dort's Genetic of Chicken Colors, the basics,) states that the pattern gene and melanizer gene are near each other, on the same chromosome; so I would guess you have to hatch a lot of birds to separate the BR's pattern and melanizing genes in your Delawares.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[NanaKat]

Definite issues with Columbian. My avatar shows the proper down color for a nice colored Columbian Wyandotte.
While I am getting the great combs, leg color and size I wanted by breeding some of my Columbian Wyandotte hens with a white Wyandotte cock, I am also getting Barred Wyandotte and several chicks with eb brown tinted chipmunk marked down. The Barred are all cockerels. From this pairing, I'm also getting three colors of down....dark, medium and light blue grey. These three down colors grow out to nice black and white birds, nice white birds with some black on neck and tails and nice white birds with less black on the neck and tails.
Breeding a Columbian cock over the older F1 pullet/hens I'm noticing some chicks with Partridge coloring, some with dark down and medium down.
Any chick with visible brown is being culled automatically. I won't feed them out. The Barred are growing out for the freezer since they are already sexed.
Next breeding season, some of the Pol pullets that make the cut will be paired with cocks according to complementing/ balancing the amount of black they express.

 

[Wisher1000]

Showing is something I do every once in a while to get feedback on the birds, but I don't enjoy it and it is not my primary goal. Other Java breeders around here wish I would show more because they would like to get the breed numbers up at the shows. But I don't think my birds are ready for showing. (My instincts must be right, if the judge thinks they would do better as Australorps

)

My primary goal is to enjoy the chickens and if I can improve the breed over time, that would be awesome.

The same judge also told an Australorp exhibitor that her birds were looking more like Orpingtons. Again, I could see where he was coming from. That particular breeder likes a fatter, fluffier look and is pushing her birds toward it. We all get coop blindness. A clue-by-four upside the head can be extremely valuable.

Quote:
The rest of these quotes all make points that I whole-heartedly agree with!

The first time I showed my Javas the judge carefully checked the Standard before judging the breed. I was thrilled they were willing to check and not rely on faulty memory. Some of the people in our poultry club were critical of the judging that day, because the judge had pulled out the Standard for more than one breed. They were arguing that it meant the judge was incompetent. Sigh. I pointed out it meant the judge was conscientious and the judge should be commended. Not sure if it sunk in.

Quote:
You had a good judge. There are no judges I know of now that knows the whole Standard. There is the implied pressure on judges to not refer to the APA Standard, but the Standard says that a judge needs to have the latest version with them while judging. I would respect a judge who referred to the Standard. The alternative is that the judge guesses. .Which one do they prefer?

Walt

I don't show but I would prefer a judge that knows and judges to the standard. Without that, most breeds would become homogenous and shaped the same.

I would not expect a judge to know every detail on every breed. That is unrealistic. I expect that many judges generally knows each class, and is most familiar with what they see the most of. Also what they have the most interest in. I would see it complimentary if I saw a judge work through the birds with the Standard accessible. There is a lot of details to have memorized. A lot of important details. I am sure some are impressive with what they have memorized, but there is a lot.

It is good to hear an honest and cordial discussion after the judging. I think these conversations are informative.

I love my rare birds. I have them, at least in part, because they are rare. I understand that when I chose them I was accepting the problems that come with choosing a rare breed. I tried to be interested in other breeds (I still look at others as possible second breeds to add) but none ever add up to my interest in the Campines. That lets me know I have the right breed for me, even though others often suggest I would "do better" with an easier breed.

One of the first problems I encountered is that not only are experienced Campinists hard to find, if there are any still living, they are nowhere near the deep south(east,) I know that if they even exist, they are likely old and cannot be found online. Therefore, I haul birds to get some guidance and feedback from those with more knowledge and experience than I have. The trick is figuring out whose advice to listen to! My strategy is to ask for opinions, thoughts, suggestion from anyone I meet that seems experienced and respected. I listen and ask questions, I take notes, and consider each detail I am given, then I award more weight to what information is given repeatedly, seems logical, and is not too far off in either direction. Bob Blosl reminded others often to "keep kicking the can down the middle of the road." My interpretation of that is that I should be patient, don't try to make quick, drastic changes in my line, and don't get too far off chasing one quality.

Another problem that is constant is that, because they are so rare in the shows, I have run across no one.... breeders, judges, hobbyists, etc. ... that knows the standard on these birds better than I do. I have to bite my cheek when they tell me that I need to work toward this or that, when I know it is not what the standard calls for. I will not contradict or argue a point with someone who has agreed to my request for a critique. I try to look at what they tell me from the point of view that they are giving me general breeding tips, rather than specific advice on my birds.

At the last large show I entered, I took a hen that was only 3/4 Campine. She had some (type) qualities that were in line with what I needed, but her markings, while generally appropriate, were obviously off. One of her main strengths was that she was significantly larger than all the other hens, although still slightly below what the standard calls for. I needed that size! My goal in bringing her at all was to show her to some experienced breeders and seek their opinions (pro and con) on using her.

She was given best of breed.

I knew the only reason she got that was because she was the biggest, and her type was pleasing because it was balanced and solid. I didn't mind, actually, I was amused. I did feel bad and a bit embarrassed, because the other exhibitors (both friends) had Campines which were much closer to standard. The judge, I assume, evaluated them quickly and moved on. He did not refer to the standard. They were no competition for the other breeds in the class. They were not going to go any higher than best of breed, and everyone, especially I, knew it.

A funny aside to that story is that there was a man that perused the Campines and the cage cards and pitched a fit. He was very angry that she was given BB and said that the owners paid good money to have them judged and should demand a refund. He caused a small scene. I was more perplexed by his actions than the judges.

Walt, I have often considered making some flyers that outlines the history, and some main points from the standard, for the Campines. My thought was that I would attach it to the cages where the Campines were as a way to garner interest in the breed, educate the laymen on how they are judged, and to give the judge a quick reference (if they wanted it.) I have not done this because I was afraid I would offend the judge, or that doing so would be against the APA copyright rules. In your comments above, you suggested showing the judge the SOP. I would be afraid that would be disrespectful, but maybe my idea would accomplish the same thing. Thoughts?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

A funny aside to that story is that there was a man that perused the Campines and the cage cards and pitched a fit. He was very angry that she was given BB and said that the owners paid good money to have them judged and should demand a refund. He caused a small scene. I was more perplexed by his actions than the judges.

Walt, I have often considered making some flyers that outlines the history, and some main points from the standard, for the Campines. My thought was that I would attach it to the cages where the Campines were as a way to garner interest in the breed, educate the laymen on how they are judged, and to give the judge a quick reference (if they wanted it.) I have not done this because I was afraid I would offend the judge, or that doing so would be against the APA copyright rules. In your comments above, you suggested showing the judge the SOP. I would be afraid that would be disrespectful, but maybe my idea would accomplish the same thing. Thoughts?

Someone making a "scene" because the Campines weren't judged to the standard makes so much sense to me. I've only been to one show so don't know ... Is that not normal? Shouldn't it be?

The second part, this is another place where the "Coop Card" idea would be useful. By "Coop Card" I mean a laminated breed-specific excerpt from the SOP produced by the APA (or other publishers of other Standards), that shows the breed's illustrations & written description along with some of the more common faults & DQs to look out for with that breed.

 

[Wisher1000]

Fair point, well made, Leslie. We should all be that passionate, however, there is a lot of subjectivity just because everyone has a different "eye" and feeling of which is more important.

I think it would be a great idea for the cards to be produced, or even just approved by the APA for shows. I'm afraid it would be abused, though

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Fair point, well made, Leslie. We should all be that passionate, however, there is a lot of subjectivity just because everyone has a different "eye" and feeling of which is more important.

I think it would be a great idea for the cards to be produced, or even just approved by the APA for shows. I'm afraid it would be abused, though

For sure it would be abused ... people are like that. Either deliberately or through (sometimes deliberate) ignorance. But it would also be very useful.

I wonder ... like there are sponsors of the illustrations in the SOP, if maybe people (or breed clubs) could sponsor the production of the "Coop Card" for individual breeds. Get the layout all done up on the computer with the sponsorship money, then the individual cards could be sold, printed, laminated and shipped on demand. I'd pay pretty good money for a Delaware Coop Card.

 

[Wisher1000]

Another approach would be for a breeder or club to produce a flyer (one page, front only, 8.5x11) with a limited number of critical bulleted judging points, DQs, and a brief breed history and submit it for permission to display only at APA sanctioned shows. Just a thought........

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Another approach would be for a breeder or club to produce a flyer (one page, front only, 8.5x11) with a limited number of critical bulleted judging points, DQs, and a brief breed history and submit it for permission to display only at APA sanctioned shows. Just a thought........

I've seen a really nice and comprehensive flyer a Dominique breeder (club?) did. It was more extensive than what you're suggesting, and contained what appeared to be a number of original illustrations. Very impressive.

 

[bnjrob]

For sure it would be abused ... people are like that. Either deliberately or through (sometimes deliberate) ignorance. But it would also be very useful.

I wonder ... like there are sponsors of the illustrations in the SOP, if maybe people (or breed clubs) could sponsor the production of the "Coop Card" for individual breeds. Get the layout all done up on the computer with the sponsorship money, then the individual cards could be sold, printed, laminated and shipped on demand. I'd pay pretty good money for a Delaware Coop Card.

I wouldn't have any problem making up my own coop card to hang on the cage for reference - if that is what it takes to make sure that the judges get the info they need. I've already been working on getting info up on our farm website about our breed, because so many people have asked me the same questions that I decided it would be faster to have someplace to refer them to look at the info and then they can come ask me more questions later.

 

[MagicChicken]

I love my rare birds. I have them, at least in part, because they are rare. I understand that when I chose them I was accepting the problems that come with choosing a rare breed. I tried to be interested in other breeds (I still look at others as possible second breeds to add) but none ever add up to my interest in the Campines. That lets me know I have the right breed for me, even though others often suggest I would "do better" with an easier breed.

One of the first problems I encountered is that not only are experienced Campinists hard to find, if there are any still living, they are nowhere near the deep south(east,) I know that if they even exist, they are likely old and cannot be found online. Therefore, I haul birds to get some guidance and feedback from those with more knowledge and experience than I have. The trick is figuring out whose advice to listen to! My strategy is to ask for opinions, thoughts, suggestion from anyone I meet that seems experienced and respected. I listen and ask questions, I take notes, and consider each detail I am given, then I award more weight to what information is given repeatedly, seems logical, and is not too far off in either direction. Bob Blosl reminded others often to "keep kicking the can down the middle of the road." My interpretation of that is that I should be patient, don't try to make quick, drastic changes in my line, and don't get too far off chasing one quality.

Another problem that is constant is that, because they are so rare in the shows, I have run across no one.... breeders, judges, hobbyists, etc. ... that knows the standard on these birds better than I do. I have to bite my cheek when they tell me that I need to work toward this or that, when I know it is not what the standard calls for. I will not contradict or argue a point with someone who has agreed to my request for a critique. I try to look at what they tell me from the point of view that they are giving me general breeding tips, rather than specific advice on my birds.

At the last large show I entered, I took a hen that was only 3/4 Campine. She had some (type) qualities that were in line with what I needed, but her markings, while generally appropriate, were obviously off. One of her main strengths was that she was significantly larger than all the other hens, although still slightly below what the standard calls for. I needed that size! My goal in bringing her at all was to show her to some experienced breeders and seek their opinions (pro and con) on using her.

She was given best of breed.

I knew the only reason she got that was because she was the biggest, and her type was pleasing because it was balanced and solid. I didn't mind, actually, I was amused. I did feel bad and a bit embarrassed, because the other exhibitors (both friends) had Campines which were much closer to standard. The judge, I assume, evaluated them quickly and moved on. He did not refer to the standard. They were no competition for the other breeds in the class. They were not going to go any higher than best of breed, and everyone, especially I, knew it.

A funny aside to that story is that there was a man that perused the Campines and the cage cards and pitched a fit. He was very angry that she was given BB and said that the owners paid good money to have them judged and should demand a refund. He caused a small scene. I was more perplexed by his actions than the judges.

Walt, I have often considered making some flyers that outlines the history, and some main points from the standard, for the Campines. My thought was that I would attach it to the cages where the Campines were as a way to garner interest in the breed, educate the laymen on how they are judged, and to give the judge a quick reference (if they wanted it.) I have not done this because I was afraid I would offend the judge, or that doing so would be against the APA copyright rules. In your comments above, you suggested showing the judge the SOP. I would be afraid that would be disrespectful, but maybe my idea would accomplish the same thing. Thoughts?

Given that your 3/4 Campine was significantly larger than the others, but still under weight per the Standard, is it possible that the other entries were underweight to the point of being disqualified? And the judge ranked them anyway without actually disqualifying? I am asking this because my first year I showed one Java pullet that was significantly under weight. She was the only female I had with good body shape, head shape, and coloring but she was significantly under size. I wanted feedback on her. The judge was nice and did not disqualify the bird for being under weight, but could have. After the judging I spoke with the judge about that bird. The judge basically said "she was so under weight I didn't pay much attention to her other features." Several other breeders of different breeds agreed with the judge. They all recommended that I not breed that bird.

So, if your 3/4 Campine had been larger than the standard and the other, smaller birds were within Standard range I could see a problem. But you said your bird was below Standard weight and still was much larger than the competition. Maybe, just maybe, those other birds were so under weight they were effectively if not literally disqualified - and your bird was the only one close enough in weight to not be effectively disqualified?