Java Thread

[lydiaharmon]

Does anyone have Auburn Javas or breed them? I bought a rooster, and 2 pullets from a lady I know. One pullet ended up being a rooster, and now I only have the one hen. They're all around 8 months old. The roosters have really pretty coloring, but I don't think the hen does, and she has a crooked tail. I'm worried about breeding her, because I don't want to pass on bad coloring or bad genes to such a rare breed. Also, she has not laid a single egg...granted, I know it's not really laying season, but it worries me. I've only had chickens period for a few months now, and am still learning. After reading a lot about the Auburn Javas, it almost scares me to have them, because I don't want to mess them up. :-/ Advice?

 

[lydiaharmon]

 

[bnjrob]

Does anyone have Auburn Javas or breed them? I bought a rooster, and 2 pullets from a lady I know. One pullet ended up being a rooster, and now I only have the one hen. They're all around 8 months old. The roosters have really pretty coloring, but I don't think the hen does, and she has a crooked tail. I'm worried about breeding her, because I don't want to pass on bad coloring or bad genes to such a rare breed. Also, she has not laid a single egg...granted, I know it's not really laying season, but it worries me. I've only had chickens period for a few months now, and am still learning. After reading a lot about the Auburn Javas, it almost scares me to have them, because I don't want to mess them up. :-/ Advice?

Auburn colored Javas are not recognized by the APA and because they have only been being bred in more recent years (roughly less than 10 years), they are still a work in progress, coming from one original source flock.

The males and females don't exactly "match" as far as their color patterns being exactly alike and it is more difficult to get the females to breed to the color pattern established by the man that has been working on the Auburns. If you don't think the female has pretty coloring, I'd guess it is probably either because the males and females don't match their color patterns exactly and you were unaware that the females wouldn't look identical to the males in color pattern. Or because the birds that you obtained are still needing a LOT of breeding work to bring out the color pattern in the female that the creator of the current "Auburn" Java has been working on.

You most certainly would not want to breed a bird that has a crooked tail - if you were to butcher that bird, you would probably find that it is not really just a crooked tail, but in fact more likely a spinal column deformity. Chances are, that female will not even be able to be physically mated successfully because the deformity shifts the anatomy over, so the male may mount her but not necessarily get things in the correct place. And if she did manage to get mated successfully, there is a high risk of passing on her deformity to the offspring. Dealing with minor flaws when you are breeding is one thing, you do NOT want to breed a major deformity into your flock like what this female has.

If you are truly interested in breeding Auburn Javas, you will need to obtain better quality stock to even begin to feel like you are making any progress in breeding. But since these birds are still a work in progress, you are going to find more flaws in them than you would with another breed/variety that has been bred extensively for a long time. Breeding is a lot of work and it can get very tiresome and frustrating. Trying to breed an Auburn Java may not bring you as much satisfaction because these are "new" birds and they need even more work than even the Black and Mottled Javas. And even the Blacks and Mottleds need a lot of work to get them back to where they used to be 100+ years ago. Because the Auburns are not recognized by the APA, there is no Standard to use as a guideline for breeding, except for non-color-related Java characteristics. You can still breed for type and comb traits, but as far as feather pattern, leg/foot colors, eye colors - they can be all over the place and you will have to decide what colors/patterns to breed for. And it may not be the same colors that someone else is breeding for.

Probably not what you wanted to hear. People are generally quite enamored when they see the photos of the Auburns, particularly the males, but the reality is that they are a new variety that has not been standardized and they don't always breed true with as much consistency as the Blacks/Mottleds. Pair that with folks who are not serious breeders and have not been working on them for years, and you're likely to wind up with poor quality stock that will make you unhappy.

The fact that you bought two pullets and one turned out to be a cockerel, makes me curious as to whether the seller has much experience with breeding Javas at all and how serious their breeding program is, or if they simply are trying to hatch pretty colored birds to sell.

If you like Javas, I would suggest getting some Blacks or Mottleds. They have been bred and kept since the 1800s, and even though they need work because so few people even kept Javas in the 20th century, they are generally in better shape than the Auburns and don't need quite as much breeding work to have nice looking birds with a somewhat uniform appearance. Blacks are easier for breeding feather color, but breeding for vigor, type, size, and production should always come first before worrying about feather colors. If you're wanting Auburns and want them to all be nice looking and uniform....well, even if you do get some stock from the originator of the Auburns, they still are less likely to breed true consistently than a recognized, established variety of Java so you'll have your work cut out for you. But Lyle Behl in IL is the man that has been breeding Auburns, for about 7 years I believe he mentioned, and you'll get better stock if you go to him directly.

 

[lydiaharmon]

Thanks for your insight. I got them from a lady that just bought them to sell. She didn't breed them herself, and I have no idea where she got them. I had no idea how rare they were until after I bought them. Since I'm so new to keeping chickens period, they make me nervous to even own, because I don't feel like I know enough about chickens and genetics to try my hand at breeding to improve a breed...especially a breed that doesn't have set standards yet. Maybe I'll look into breeding them again in the future, or into breeding black or mottled javas. For now, I don't think I'm ready. Now I just wonder what to do with them...I had mannnnny concerns about breeding a bird with a crooked tail. I don't know if she's even capable of laying. If she's not, I need to cull her. I have no idea what to do with them now.

 

[bnjrob]

Thanks for your insight. I got them from a lady that just bought them to sell. She didn't breed them herself, and I have no idea where she got them. I had no idea how rare they were until after I bought them. Since I'm so new to keeping chickens period, they make me nervous to even own, because I don't feel like I know enough about chickens and genetics to try my hand at breeding to improve a breed...especially a breed that doesn't have set standards yet. Maybe I'll look into breeding them again in the future, or into breeding black or mottled javas. For now, I don't think I'm ready. Now I just wonder what to do with them...I had mannnnny concerns about breeding a bird with a crooked tail. I don't know if she's even capable of laying. If she's not, I need to cull her. I have no idea what to do with them now.

I'd butcher them. Turn them all into dinner. Or give them to someone who can butcher them.

If you want to do any serious breeding, no matter what breed you choose, there are going to be flaws that you'll have to work through. Getting a copy of the SOP if you don't have one, is the first step in learning about the Standard to breed your birds to. There are no perfect birds and in breeding, it is often a case of complementary matings, where you choose who has a flaw that can be fixed by breeding to bird that doesn't have that problem. You can breed two "show quality" birds that have won ribbons and still wind up with most of the offspring having a flaw. It's just the way chicken genetics works. That's probably why so many people just keep a flock of pretty colored birds that catch their eye, because it's easier than doing serious breeding. But if you really want to breed seriously, don't be discouraged. It can be done. We love all our standard and non standard colored Javas. They are a lot of fun.

 

[lydiaharmon]

I think I'll get rid of them in some way. I don't feel like I have the ability to do a good job with such a rare breed at this time, and don't want to do the breed an injustice with my inexperience. I'm gonna try my hand at common breeds before I try to launch into a rare breed.

 

[Farmer Viola]

Honestly if it were me, I would mate both females to both males and not worry so much about what they look like - just to get more birds on the ground and have more to choose from later. That way there would be more genetics in the flock than trying to hatch everything from just one male/female You can still wind up with offspring that looks better than their parents, and then you would have a wider selection to choose from and can see how things fit together in the offspring After seeing the first year's hatch mature, you'll have a better idea of how the genetics are going to play together. Still can get some surprises, but it really helps to get that first hatch matured to get a better idea of complementary pairings later on.

As far as hatching from pullet/cockerel eggs....when you don't have many birds and you just can't go to the feed store to buy replacements, if you don't hatch as soon as possible, you risk having your breeding stock get wiped out and losing everything. Even hatching our first year from pullet/cockerel eggs, those birds have turned out bigger than their parents and some of them even better looking than their parents. Healthwise, I have not noticed any problems in the chicks from young birds having health/vigor issues. It would be ideal to hatch only from older birds later on, to make sure something weird doesn't pop up, like my cock that sprouted a comb side sprig when he was about 2 years old, but if I were you, I'd plan to go ahead and hatch this winter/spring so you can have backups in case of loss.

Would be nice if they kept their nice yellow feet into adulthood. I've found that as they age, a good number of them tend to wash out in color and wind up with grayish legs and off whitish feet. If you have some that keep their yellow feet for a long time, make a note of who it is and try to breed them and perpetuate those pretty feet.

The SOP says that their beaks should be "horn shading to yellow at tip". So basically just about any color with some yellow on it. It's not really even a big deal to worry about unless something strange happens and one has a neon green beak.

Thanks again! I'm going to start breeding these when the weather turns around this spring.

The cockerel is still young, so his shallow breast may fill out over the next year or so. Keep an eye on it. Once you have enough birds you can start selecting for deeper breasts if necessary. My javas take at least a year to really fill out. The early-developing birds often stall out and get surpassed in size and type by the slower-developing birds. It has meant keeping a lot more cockerels around for a lot longer than I had originally planned, but it is worth it in the long run.

If you look at the illustrations in the Standard of Perfection, there shouldn't be much white on the Mottled Javas. It's just little accents of white at the tips of some of the feathers, sprinkled evenly over the body. So hang onto that darker pullet. Even she may have too much white, but she will help balance the other two birds.

Bnjrob has given some excellent advice. Since you can't get replacement birds you need to get your numbers up and you can't worry about using pullets and cockerels at this stage. You work with what you have and do what you have to do. Like bnjrob, I would use both pullets with that cockerel the first year, and hatch as many chicks as possible. Then you will have a better idea of what you have and you will have more birds to pick from, in addition to having more than one generation. Next year you can mate pullets back to the cock and cockerels to the hens. After that you will have the option to use only older birds to breed from, and you will have a much better idea how they grow out, so culling will become easier. You can get pickier once you have some numbers to work with.

I started with a straight run of Black Java chicks a couple of years ago. Did a bunch of test matings of cockerels and pullets because that was all I had to work with. Was making good progress when a couple of loose dogs got into my yard and wiped out half my flock - including every single good bird I had. I have become a big fan of getting numbers up - especially early in the process - because you never know what is going to happen. This spring I will be starting over with what were intended to be culls - my laying flock and meat birds. Lesson learned. As soon as I get my numbers back up I will only be keeping birds I would be willing to breed from. It may take a few years to get to that point. I just bought a trio from a friend of mine, hoping to speed that process along. Will try some test crosses next spring to see if the new blood is going to help, or just make things worse. Time will tell.

Good luck!

I need to get a copy of the SoP, shamefully I don't have one I just go off of internet resources (so far). It's on my Christmas list! I actually thought, I guess from photos of mottled Javas, that the whiter birds were closer to the desired look, so thanks for pointing out the darker blacker girl's better coloring. Out of curiosity, once you have hatched higher numbers of chicks, at what ages do you start making your cull decisions? Sorry to hear about the loss of your breeding flock, that would be so incredibly difficult. Sounds like you have a good foundation starting from a trio at the least. Thanks for all your advice!

 

[bnjrob]

Thanks again! I'm going to start breeding these when the weather turns around this spring.

I need to get a copy of the SoP, shamefully I don't have one I just go off of internet resources (so far). It's on my Christmas list! I actually thought, I guess from photos of mottled Javas, that the whiter birds were closer to the desired look, so thanks for pointing out the darker blacker girl's better coloring. Out of curiosity, once you have hatched higher numbers of chicks, at what ages do you start making your cull decisions? Sorry to hear about the loss of your breeding flock, that would be so incredibly difficult. Sounds like you have a good foundation starting from a trio at the least. Thanks for all your advice!

The SOP has more than just breed standards in it, it has helpful information about chickens and breeding in general, so you'll want it as you go along. But you're on the right track asking questions and doing research!

I have never actually seen a Mottled Java that really meets the SOP for the white in the feathers. They are all "splashed" looking instead of having the well defined white tips with only so many feathers being tipped in white. There are some Javas out there, and I have a few, that have spots of the well defined white tipped feathers, but it isn't all over and isn't consistent. Mostly, Mottled Javas are a splashed bird and they were also a white splashed bird way-back-when. And they met the old SOP. It wasn't until the 1920s that somebody got it into their heads to change the SOP to have the more defined white tipped feathers, saying that there were birds being bred that looked like that and that the change in the SOP would "modernize the old Mottled Java and eliminate cross-breds." So far I have not found any illustrations or photos of Mottleds that meet this SOP in the old literature. I honestly think that somebody with money and/or clout in the APA convinced the APA to make the change in the SOP to meet what THEIR OWN flock looked like, not necessarily being representative of the majority of flocks. The goal apparently was for the Java to have the Ancona's type of mottling.

But Javas will definitely get whiter as they age, no matter what. I have some "color project" birds that actually were black feathered as youngsters, but now as they are two years old, they are molting into having mottled feathers. The white is more of a grayish color right now, but it's there. When you do get a bird that has more black than white on it, especially if it does have spots of the more well defined white tips, you'll see that it is rather striking compared to the splashy look. But it is hard to get birds to look like that. Especially when you're also trying to work on all the other things that Javas need work on. MagicChicken is cutting her teeth on the Blacks so all she has to worry about with feather color is if any turn out with white spots on their feathers, and making sure that her birds have the green sheen and not a purple sheen or purple barring. Sometimes it makes me jealous to think of only having to mess with one color of feathers.

As you go along, you will be able to decide when to cull depending on what you're looking for in your flock and also how consistent everyone is turning out to be. Birds with side sprigs early on can be culled early. You can also cull earlier for foot color if you have enough birds - they should have yellow feet not pink feet. And if there are any other serious defects that you do not want to be breeding into your birds - like spine or foot/leg deformities. You can also cull early for late bloomers, keeping those that mature early both in size and in sexual maturity/egg laying. A lot of times though you wind up having to grow them out a good ways to decide who makes the cut because they can all be very close in size, weight, and appearance. Usually we wind up doing the final breeder choosing when they are 10-12 months old, but I often already have an idea of who is staying alive and who turns into dinner. And then it's a case of taking the scale and the SOP out to the pasture and examining everyone, putting hands on them, and comparing the best side by side to make a decision. The more hatches you grow out, the easier and faster it is to start spotting things that can help you cull earlier, based on what you are looking for in your flock.

 

[Debs55]

Hi all. I am still working through reading this thread and I dont even hhav javas yet but I have a question. Could you keep a flock of black and mottled javas together? I know some breeds work like that but I wasnt sure. I love the mottled java but they seem harder to find. so I thought maybe I could get some black and some mottled from different breeders. Also If any one has a suggestion for a breeder that would e great too

 

[bnjrob]

Hi all. I am still working through reading this thread and I dont even hhav javas yet but I have a question. Could you keep a flock of black and mottled javas together? I know some breeds work like that but I wasnt sure. I love the mottled java but they seem harder to find. so I thought maybe I could get some black and some mottled from different breeders. Also If any one has a suggestion for a breeder that would e great too

You can keep them together, however breeding them when they all run together is another story - especially if you are wanting pure, properly colored birds for showing/selling purposes. The Blacks aren't as detrimental to the Mottleds, but the Mottleds will mess up your Blacks coloring much easier.

The Mottleds will introduce the wrong eye color and white feathering into the Black birds, which you don't want. White feathers in a Black Java is a disqualification for showing. The Mottleds would also introduce an eye color that is too light into the Black birds. This isn't a DQ, but it can be a pain in the butt when you're trying to get the Blacks as close to the breed standard as you can get them.

Blacks were used to make the Mottleds, so the color isn't as much of a problem. A Black Java can be helpful if you have Mottleds that have too much white feathering in them. Mottleds get whiter as they age, so if you are getting a lot of really white young Mottleds, then throwing a Black Java in can help to darken the offspring up some. The biggest problem I've found with this is that the darker the bird, the higher tendency for them to have pink feet - which is a disqualification. Both types of Javas should have yellow feet. You can get pink feet in a Mottled Java flock that has not had any Blacks bred back into them, but when you add in a Black Java, you'll probably see a higher incidence of pink feet and have to be even pickier when choosing breeders from those offspring, to try to get rid of the pink feet in your Mottleds.

Best thing to do if you want both colors, is to separate them into breeding pens at least a month before you are getting ready to start collecting eggs to hatch. That way you let your hens get rid of the sperm from other roosters, and stick them in a pen with the male you have chosen to breed them with - and you know who the parents are. That way you'll have less unexpected color problems come up. You'll still get color issues coming up no matter what, just because chicken genetics works that way, but it isn't fun to have a problem come up because you introduced it.