Line breeding: how do I get started?

[chooks4life]

Agree about not linebreeding EE's or any birds with ear tuft genetics, or any other lethal genes... Obvious problems there.

Asides from that, sounds like the OP has some beautiful birds chosen for their projects. Good luck with them.

Interesting info Levy, I think I know where you got it as I reckon I've read that thread before... Can't recall the name offhand though.

Do you know why they're using cockerels to hens and roosters to pullets? I suspect it's just for the speed of the breeding program since they can take decades, but if you heard/read another reason stated I'd be curious to know it.

I only breed my stock under a year old for cullers, munchies that is, as they like pretty much all animals tend to produce sub-par offspring before they've hit prime physical maturity. Never got an animal worth breeding out of an underage parent, doesn't matter if the other parent is in its prime. Same for very old animals though some of those still throw some decent offspring, just nowhere near as often as they used to.

Best wishes.

 

[gjensen]

I agree that the genetic make up of the egg would be the same. But I have heard that you shouldn't hatch pullet eggs.

I do not think tat it is ideal to breed from pullets. I would prefer for them to prove their livability. For example, waiting may have prevented the breeding of a pullet tat would have become egg bound etc. I also cannot evaluate them completely until they are trough their first laying cycle, through their molt, and up to when they pick back up laying.
That is not saying that I have not or will not breed some pullets. There may be smaller chicks from the smaller eggs, but they catch up fast. The offspring sees no ill effect fro the age of the dam.

 

[chooks4life]

Just to be clear, you are saying you only begin breeding at full maturity or at 1 year of age? or how do you determine the right age to begin breeding? is it after the first full molt?

shouldn't the genetic makeup of the egg be the same, whether it was laid by a 7 month old pullet or a 12 month old? I am also learning about line breeding, and I have never understood this aspect of it. I guess in some cases, you may be waiting for 1 year old maturity so you can be sure of the traits you are breeding. I know in BLRW in particular, they can show up with double lacing after their first molt although it was never there before (cull trait)...

The quality of the genetics both parents pass on is heavily influenced by their state of health and age, i.e. you've probably heard that older animals are more likely to pass on genetic defects. Younger parents have less to contribute to their offspring and this is particularly visible from the female's side. This is a common trait shown in most species, very young parents almost always produce lower grade offspring than they will later produce when older. Much of modern commercial agriculture depends on breeding as young as possible though, but that used to be considered very unwise.

I breed them young only for edibles, because instead of having to pick culls from a uniformly good group i.e. from prime-age breedings, when I breed them underage I get uniformly less high-quality individuals. They'd be considered fine by any normal standards until you see them standing next to their siblings from later prime-age breedings of their parents. No comparison.

The quality of eggs and sperm is not constant and always 'A1 grade' all throughout the animals' reproductive lives, there are significant differences noted in early and late lifetime generally speaking. Even in species where the female is born with her eggs already present, there is variability in the quality of the eggs released and ripened when very young, mature, and very old.

For this reason it's also a good idea to be cautious in breeding males or females who recently went through something severe like a toxicity or illness... Theoretically the eggs/sperm are still carrying the same genes, but in practice you can get deformed clutches or less healthy ones anyway from breeding too close to such an event even if theoretically it should not have been able to affect the genetics.

It's not the clearest subject for sure, definitely worth digging through the studies on it, but many people observe this 'underage parents produce weakly offspring' rule of thumb, while others believe it's some kind of old wives' tale or myth. Your own experiences will confirm or dismiss it to you, but I'd bet you'll only see if confirmed, as that's always been my experience. It's akin to the 'cage eggs have the same nutritional makeup as free range eggs' concept --- yes, they do, but in much lesser quantities almost as a rule. An egg is still an egg, but you taste the difference. It's the same with the offspring of too-young parents, breed the same parents in another year and compare the offspring and suddenly not all 'eggs' are equal.

Definitely an experiment anyone wanting to breed should try just because it's simple and educational. I'm a bit aghast at the fact that most turkeys around my area are descended from males under a year old because most people cull them before their first birthday. Experience with various species tells me that's not good.

I have kept some offspring from younger parents as they've become family pets, but they tend to have worse appearances, be less hardy, just generally fall below the standard of later generations from the same parents at older ages.

As for determining the right age of breeding to obtain potential breeding stock, it's basically just 'in good health, at a minimum of a year old' --- that seems pretty true across the board even with early maturing individuals/breeds compared to later maturing individuals/breeds.

I'm also having to rethink what prime age is, all my hens approaching 5 years old have shown significant changes in wattle size, body size, patterning, etc, and it's not explainable by breed because there are many unrelated lines among them. :/ I thought such late continued development was a feature of only a few breeds, primarily long lived ones like some Japanese bantams, or so I'd heard. I do know most of my males put on significant size after their first birthday, up to almost twice the size in their second year.

Best wishes.

 

[gjensen]

Hum, some folk on BYC don't even get genetic shorthand, . I have studied epigenetics. A fascinating arena of thought.
I have a collie breeder friend who has used it extensively for health in her private life and in her collie breeding program
with astonishing positive results. That said, these were mammals, not avian. It's a whole different thing. Tesio, Bohannon,
and others have addressed epigenetics in mammals when they didn't even know what it was. Even when one is discussing
animals , the subjects of changes in microsatellites and the effects of epigenesis on the major histocompatabiity complex (MHC)
are way beyond anything the average breeder needs to succeed. For most of us, "the art of breeding" plus a dash of
genetics is all we need to succeed. Fun Fact: goldfish use their sense of smell to select spouses who will produce most productive
MHC in their young.
Best Regards,
Karen

Karen, to be frank, epigenetics is irrelevant concerning this discussion. It sounds good, but that is all. If we start with good genetics, make good breeding decisions, and have good management practices, we will move forward. Anything else is a distraction. We try to make it more than what it is. New people have a greater tendency to get caught up in these things than anyone else.

 

[Yoyo with chick]

 
Hum, some folk on BYC don't even get genetic shorthand, . I have studied epigenetics. A fascinating arena of thought.
I have a collie breeder friend who has used it extensively for health  in her private life and in her collie breeding program
with astonishing positive results. That said, these were mammals, not avian. It's a whole different thing. Tesio, Bohannon,
and others have addressed epigenetics in mammals when they didn't even know what it was. Even when one is discussing
animals , the subjects of changes in microsatellites and the effects of epigenesis on the major histocompatabiity complex (MHC)
are way beyond anything the average breeder needs to succeed. For most of us, "the art of breeding" plus a dash of
genetics is all we need to succeed. Fun Fact: goldfish use their sense of smell to select spouses who will produce most productive
 MHC in their young.
Best Regards,
 Karen

 Karen, to be frank, epigenetics is irrelevant concerning this discussion. It sounds good, but that is all. If we start with good genetics, make good breeding decisions, and have good management practices, we will move forward. Anything else is a distraction. We try to make it more than what it is. New people have a greater tendency to get caught up in these things than anyone else.

However I think that once you become more expirienced then you can start learning these other terms...

 

[gjensen]

Ahh, I forgot about the side flock. Another line bred group? Phenotypically similar, so type to type? Obviously same breeding system- exchanges possible either way? I'd guess for some people it's not really a "side flock" but Flock A and Flock B. Equally important just different ancestors or a fork in the road.

Any idea why chickens would tolerate inbreeding better than mammals? Lowered MHC doesn't mean immune system issues? No lowered reproduction rates? While I disagree with some of his thoughts, Leon Whitney wrote about tropical fish in the 1930's? He said the first few generations of inbred fish went down in color, longevity, etc but then they suddenly became more vigorous, vibrant, etc. In the long run, for however long he studied them, inbreeding worked in their favor. Hmmm, question - a maternal grandsire to granddaughter is one of the popular line-breeding schemes in dogs. Altering for chicken differences of ZZ and ZW, (grandmother/grandson?) Is that theory used in poultry?

Not just flock

You should be able to take pleasure in any of your animals. Just looking at them should make you smile

Thanks George, this part of the discussion I like!

Let's say I am working on Buff Leghorns (I am not), and I feel that I need some new blood. I find an unrelated or distantly related flock somewhere, and purchase two hens. Hopefully they have something that I need also.
Committing an entire flock to a cock bird may create genetic chaos, so I put one of my cock birds on the hens. I may even go another generation, then add some pullets to my flock. I should receive some benefit concerning "fresh genetics", but I took the safer route. Adding them on the female side will mean less overall influence. By working them in the way I did, selection would have let me get them closer before they were added.
In theory, I am working towards an ideal. Haphazardly throwing something new in will likely set me back while I work back towards that ideal. Frankly, it could be detrimental to the effort. This could be a side mating that brings in something new, but a safer way to do it.

General side mating's could be to fix or add a trait. It can be taken one generation or more. This side mating will have moved away from the main flock, but not by enough to make a noticeable difference.
It can also be see something that you think will work well, and want to try. The side mating can add a sense of freedom to be creative, but can also be used to mantain or add vigor.

And to your remark. In theory, you are working with more family at a time. Generally from two to four. They are all heading in a similar direction, so their can be a safe rotation between families. You can operate independently for a long time with four families. Many run only two small families, but this is easier done wit more coon breeds that are in good shape.

Yes the Grandmother/Grandson is commonly used. An idea is that each generation is farther away from the first. You are moving away from where you were, and then going back to where you come from.

And I agree, there is no reason to own them if they give you no pleasure. Most people that enjoy them, give them good care. Most.

 

[tridentk9]

 Yes, I got suckered. I thought she was trying to learn something about breeding poultry. I finally realized that the question was not a question. Shame on me.

Ahh, another ad hominem response. Disappointing.


Sigh, I still haven't heard how avian breeding is different than mammalian breeding. If having different genes makes it different- well no, that doesn't do it. Sex linked genes? Again not different. The schemes used by breeders- nope not different. It feels more and more like superstition, there may have been a reason at one time but maybe the current breeders have forgotten it? So again- HOW is it different.

I was very up front that I have no plans for breeding . I stated that in this thread and a few others. I also have no plans to breed horses, tropical fish, snakes, penguins or any of thousands and thousands of species. I like to learn new things. I'm not an expert, but I find genetics fascinating. What's not to love? Gambling, high rollers, cool equipment, new discoveries, sexy articles- yep fascinating and exciting. Keep poultry breeding boring and pedantic, continue pushing away newcomers, stiffling different ideas and soon there won't be any new converts to continue with your breeds. Can't blame others for that- it's your own fault.

 

[chooks4life]

Chooks4Life, I used some expressive statements. I did not intend for the to be specific towards you. If I got carried away, I apologize. For the most part, the statements were general. What I see a lot of, is for us to get caught up into a lot of interesting and fanciful ideas. There is noting wrong with that, of course, but we often lose our way. I am commenting on the process of learning to breed poultry. The internet is full of it. There is a lot of good information, a lot of bad information, and a lot of distracting speculation. I guess that is where I was coming from, and not intending to direct it at your contribution specifically.

I actually enjoyed the exchange itself. You are obviously intelligent, and probably brighter than myself. I am just trying to learn how to bred a few good birds. A silly hobby that has my interest.

I appreciate the gesture, but there's no need for apology. I'm the first to admit I'm still very much a learner, you probably have a lot more experience than I do. But experience isn't a linear thing, two people can take two different roads without converging for a fair while, doesn't necessarily make their experiences incorrect nor mutually exclusive, as what applies to one doesn't apply to all. That's where agreeing to disagree comes into it.

It seems to me that in any field of knowledge everyone's got pieces of the puzzle, not all of it. It's always good to have a decent, honest debate. Thanks for making helpful contributions, and also for clarifying that your comments were not directed at anyone here.

Best wishes.

Now for that statement has been repeated several times- exactly HOW is the art of poultry breeding different than the art of mammal breeding?

We share the view that it's got more similarities than differences, that does appear to be accepted by the scientific community for what that's worth, but explaining those differences is still something science itself is struggling with.

Seems every time I find something stated as absolute fact from an authoritative source I find another authoritative source claiming the direct opposite... But that's always been my experience in all educational pursuits, nobody knows it all and not a single expert is right 100% of the time, they just tend to agree on some grey areas in-between. Makes for a lot of confusion among the non-experts like myself. I suspect some areas of life sciences have such high variation that multiple experts can be right despite stating mutually exclusive 'facts'. What's true for one flock isn't necessarily true for the next.

Here's an article which may or may not be relevant to the topic, I'm just sharing because it has some findings which challenge some of the information I'm reading on other sites regarding poultry genetics and breeding:

Quote:
Here's a quote from the article, below, nothing controversial here at least... The site also has other articles comparing chickens and mammals, more so than explaining differences, seems more similarities are found than differences explained so far.

Quote:

This link below has far more information than the average breeder will ever need but addresses inbreeding in commercial poultry breeds specifically as well as loss of genetic diversity.

Quote:

This little quote may have some relevance to your question:

Quote:

But that's a pay-per-view so to speak I'm not paying almost $50 for the whole article, sorry.

Best wishes.

 

[chooks4life]

Yes, I got suckered. I thought she was trying to learn something about breeding poultry. I finally realized that the question was not a question. Shame on me.

As far as I understand, it is a question, and a legitimate one at that.

How is mammalian breeding 'very different' when having accounted for the aspects tridentk9 already took stock of?

3riverschick, I'd have thought, and some others on this thread/site should surely be able to answer that seemingly simple question in some depth, or at least I'd gained that impression anyway. Even some basics explained on the reasons that there are stated to be vast differences between avian and mammalian breeding would go a long way.

As far as I've seen this answer has not been given yet. I doubt it's anything approaching a simple answer though, but still, it remains in need of answers. Just because the person asking the question has not yet found an answer that addresses their question comprehensively, doesn't mean that person is asking a fallacious question. Seems there's a bunch of filters we're all seeing through here and meeting in the middle without bias or misunderstanding is hit-and-miss. I don't think anyone's attempting to shoot down anybody else's opinions here, at least I hope not since that's counterproductive and disrespectful.

Best wishes, looking forward to people's answers.

 

[Yoyo with chick]

Thanks guys for all the great info... But let's not fight over differing opinions. It's not right.