Mice

[BelovedBirds]

"All animals deserve a humane end" Why do you believe that? Animals eat each other alive. What entitles them to some sort of human intervention to change that?

animals deserve a painless end, but nature can be cruel. You cant change what an animal does to another animal and I can't blame them for it. Plenty of animals do awful things, I've seen dogs try to kill eachother, and chimps eat monkeys alive, dolphins kill calves to mate with their mothers, the list goes on. I don't believe any of those animals are evil, why? Because they don't have the awareness that we do. They don't have the empathy, or understanding that we do. When they kill an animal, they do it for survival, following their instincts.
We are the most intelligent species on this planet, and when we take an animal and kill them inhumanely, purposefully, I believe that is wrong. I'm not saying don't kill them, I'm saying don't be cruel.

 

[BelovedBirds]

And how would you suggest to kill them humanely once live-trapped?

One reason I use the live traps is for the safety of other family members. A real rat trap can break fingers. But, I also do not see it your way in thinking those "normal" traps are more humane. I see it the other way around. Perhaps you haven't much experience with the various methods, but drowning is painless.

There are ways to kill them humanely, I'm aware of a couple methods which snake keepers use. I don't want to go into details, but you can find some information online. Of course one of the most humane options would be euthenizing via a carbon dioxide chamber, but that is not possible for the vast majority of people.
normal traps kill pretty fast if the animal is in the isual position, there are exceptions which cause terrible suffering. But you have blatantly lied here, drowning IS painful, and stressful, and slow.

 

[BelovedBirds]

And how would you suggest to kill them humanely once live-trapped?

One reason I use the live traps is for the safety of other family members. A real rat trap can break fingers. But, I also do not see it your way in thinking those "normal" traps are more humane. I see it the other way around. Perhaps you haven't much experience with the various methods, but drowning is painless.

Drowning is stressful:trying to stay above water, trying to hold your breath and eventually, consciously, breathing in water. As the water enters the lungs there is a strong burning, which is described as "breathing in hot lava".
It is considered torture.
It is painful, it is inhumane, it is horrific. And there is NO excuse that can justify it. If anyone came here and said they drowned their chicken, there would be *outrage*. But if its a mouse, who cares right? Probably humane? What a load of insanity.

 

[Egg Blues]

Drowning is stressful:trying to stay above water, trying to hold your breath and eventually, consciously, breathing in water. As the water enters the lungs there is a strong burning, which is described as "breathing in hot lava".
It is considered torture.
It is painful, it is inhumane, it is horrific. And there is NO excuse that can justify it. If anyone came here and said they drowned their chicken, there would be *outrage*. But if its a mouse, who cares right? Probably humane? What a load of insanity.

My hat's off to you for having breathed in water as well as hot lava to be able to compare the two--and you still survived!

Obviously, we'll just have to agree to disagree when your "facts" are of such a nature as these.

By the way, I may use "mouse" and "rat" interchangeably because where I am I am trapping both. The rats have the ability to jump as much as two and a half feet high, so there's virtually nowhere in the house they don't have access. With baby chicks around, cats are not an option...but, even though you would probably consider the cat option "natural" and not "torture" (and yet you have above indicated that you consider stress to be torture), cats play with their prey deliberately, stressing them so that the adrenaline tenderizes the muscles and makes the meal more tasty. Have you ever watched the cat and mouse game? I have. The cat I watched played with the mouse with the greatest of patience--at least 15 minutes of stressing that mouse before finally finishing it off. And that is "natural."

 

[BelovedBirds]

My hat's off to you for having breathed in water as well as hot lava to be able to compare the two--and you still survived!

Obviously, we'll just have to agree to disagree when your "facts" are of such a nature as these.

By the way, I may use "mouse" and "rat" interchangeably because where I am I am trapping both. The rats have the ability to jump as much as two and a half feet high, so there's virtually nowhere in the house they don't have access. With baby chicks around, cats are not an option...but, even though you would probably consider the cat option "natural" and not "torture" (and yet you have above indicated that you consider stress to be torture), cats play with their prey deliberately, stressing them so that the adrenaline tenderizes the muscles and makes the meal more tasty. Have you ever watched the cat and mouse game? I have. The cat I watched played with the mouse with the greatest of patience--at least 15 minutes of stressing that mouse before finally finishing it off. And that is "natural."

What a foolish thing to say, you do realise that people have been saved, drowning? Right? It has been experienced before, and this information isn't pulled out of nowhere, you can look it up if you wish to. It is factual, and mostly just common sense. I've breathed in water before, it is an awful feeling. Drowning would not be pleasant.
And claiming it feels like hot lava isn't wrong, its an analogy to help people imagine what it feels like. So I advise you stop with the patronising replies, I'm not the only person who is getting tired of them.

I'm well aware of the dynamic between cat and mouse, they play with their prey until, often the prey dies. It absolutely is torturous in most cases, but again, is natural and occurs in the wild.
Would I advise getting a cat to solve it? Thank you for asking, instead of assuming I have an ignorant view of it (not, but I cant expect manners or any form of respect from you). I dislike it, but cats do seem to have a way of keeping rodents away. Would I suggest getting them to solve an infestation? No.
Would I consider having them to prevent an infestation? Perhaps. But to explain why that is I would have to go into great detail on my views about keeping cats and their care, which is neither relevant nor interesting for most people here.

 

[Egg Blues]

What a foolish thing to say, you do realise that people have been saved, drowning? Right? It has been experienced before, and this information isn't pulled out of nowhere, you can look it up if you wish to. It is factual, and mostly just common sense. I've breathed in water before, it is an awful feeling. Drowning would not be pleasant.
And claiming it feels like hot lava isn't wrong, its an analogy to help people imagine what it feels like. So I advise you stop with the patronising replies, I'm not the only person who is getting tired of them.

I'm well aware of the dynamic between cat and mouse, they play with their prey until, often the prey dies. It absolutely is torturous in most cases, but again, is natural and occurs in the wild.
Would I advise getting a cat to solve it? Thank you for asking, instead of assuming I have an ignorant view of it (not, but I cant expect manners or any form of respect from you). I dislike it, but cats do seem to have a way of keeping rodents away. Would I suggest getting them to solve an infestation? No.
Would I consider having them to prevent an infestation? Perhaps. But to explain why that is I would have to go into great detail on my views about keeping cats and their care, which is neither relevant nor interesting for most people here.

I nearly drowned once myself, despite being a good swimmer. It was because I was in an unfamiliar environment and I failed to time the waves correctly, ending up breathing in water instead of air. No, it did not feel like hot lava. It was cold water, and I remember no burning sensation whatsoever from it--just sheer panic at not getting air when I so much needed it. Stressful? Yes. Painful? No.

I also happen to be among the few who has held my breath for over five minutes. The first minute is easy enough for many people--just takes willpower. The second minute is really tough. The third minute you are trying so hard to get air that your lungs almost involuntarily attempt to expand and contract, even though there's no air exchange happening. The fourth minute sort of plateaued for me, with me beginning to think "I'm actually doing this for this long!" After the fifth minute began, I lost all craving to breathe. It was as if I was just fine. No pain. Just peace. Too much peace. I wondered if I was near the point of brain damage or something. The seconds continued to tick by as if I could last forever at this stage. I finally made the conscious decision to resume breathing, rather than wait until I had passed out, at about 5 minutes 30 seconds.

My personal experiences are, of course, no match for your strongly held views. Let every person be fully persuaded in his or her own mind.

Best wishes to you.

 

[Krugerrand]

"worthy of much humane treatment" is exactly what Im taking issue with here. This isn't about what you think they do or dont deserve
They're just animals, it's about being humane. Many do die after relocation, and its a more natural death which would have likely occured anyway. its better than being drowned.
Either kill them humanely or release, don't cause unnecssary suffering on them while arguing as though they deserve it. Makes me sick. All animals deserve a humane end, sadly it isn't always possible, but should always be a priority.

I'm not sure how to respond to this:
"This isn't about what you think they do or don't deserve ..."
as the logical conclusion I see to that line is "... it's about what I think they deserve."

But, to the ponit of 'what you think they deserve ',"All animals deserve a humane end" why do you believe that? In your seemingly 'natural is better' approach - in what world void of humanity do we see animals remotely assured a 'humane end?' I see a world of predator and prey - of eat or be eaten. And, if it does not exist naturally, why should this, less than ideal, human-meet-natural-world impose 'humane ends' on a nature that most assuredly has no such precept.

 

[BelovedBirds]

I'm not sure how to respond to this:
"This isn't about what you think they do or don't deserve ..."
as the logical conclusion I see to that line is "... it's about what I think they deserve."

But, to the ponit of 'what you think they deserve ',"All animals deserve a humane end" why do you believe that? In your seemingly 'natural is better' approach - in what world void of humanity do we see animals remotely assured a 'humane end?' I see a world of predator and prey - of eat or be eaten. And, if it does not exist naturally, why should this, less than ideal, human-meet-natural-world impose 'humane ends' on a nature that most assuredly has no such precept.

Firstly, I could have phrased this better. It isn't about deserving in a sense of something being earned, which is how you approached it. You made the implication that if they spread diseases and prey on animals, that they don't deserve humane treatment. As though, if they were healthy and well behaved they would somehow then deserve it. My argument is that all animals inherently deserve humane treatment, that causing suffering intentionally is wrong.
And I went in depth to cover why, which I feel you have hopped over while getting caught on a technical error.

Secondly, I covered this pretty well in all my replies, I explained the distinction between humanity and nature and why humans should be humane with nature/animals wherever possible.
Don't get caught up on small things, this is about someone drowning an animal and calling it painless. It's twisted and wrong.

 

[BelovedBirds]

I nearly drowned once myself, despite being a good swimmer. It was because I was in an unfamiliar environment and I failed to time the waves correctly, ending up breathing in water instead of air. No, it did not feel like hot lava. It was cold water, and I remember no burning sensation whatsoever from it--just sheer panic at not getting air when I so much needed it. Stressful? Yes. Painful? No.

I also happen to be among the few who has held my breath for over five minutes. The first minute is easy enough for many people--just takes willpower. The second minute is really tough. The third minute you are trying so hard to get air that your lungs almost involuntarily attempt to expand and contract, even though there's no air exchange happening. The fourth minute sort of plateaued for me, with me beginning to think "I'm actually doing this for this long!" After the fifth minute began, I lost all craving to breathe. It was as if I was just fine. No pain. Just peace. Too much peace. I wondered if I was near the point of brain damage or something. The seconds continued to tick by as if I could last forever at this stage. I finally made the conscious decision to resume breathing, rather than wait until I had passed out, at about 5 minutes 30 seconds.

My personal experiences are, of course, no match for your strongly held views. Let every person be fully persuaded in his or her own mind.

Best wishes to you.

Don't play the saint when you have been nothing but patronising to me in all our discussions.
And don't assume that your experience is greater evidence here, as I've said, there is so much info online about drowning and how it feels. And training yourself to hold your breath for gradually longer and longer amounts of time is not the same as suddenly tossing an animal into water to drown.
It's amusing that you bring up your experience of almost drowning after mocking me

My hat's off to you for having breathed in water as well as hot lava to be able to compare the two--and you still survived!

It's interesting that I actually brought up drowning in relations to chickens to point out the hypocrisy-- and wanted to actually share something.
An old family friend used to keep chickens, and eventually he said he couldnt keep them any longer, he was getting older and he didnt have much money- but he claimed he loved his hens like pets so couldn't eat them. So instead, he took them, put them into a sack, put a concrete block in, took them down the road to the sea, and threw them into the deep.

Anyone want to tell me this is humane?

 

[Krugerrand]

Firstly, I could have phrased this better. It isn't about deserving in a sense of something being earned, which is how you approached it. You made the implication that if they spread diseases and prey on animals, that they don't deserve humane treatment. As though, if they were healthy and well behaved they would somehow then deserve it. My argument is that all animals inherently deserve humane treatment, that causing suffering intentionally is wrong.
And I went in depth to cover why, which I feel you have hopped over while getting caught on a technical error.

Secondly, I covered this pretty well in all my replies, I explained the distinction between humanity and nature and why humans should be humane with nature/animals wherever possible.
Don't get caught up on small things, this is about someone drowning an animal and calling it painless. It's twisted and wrong.

"My argument is that all animals inherently deserve humane treatment" I got the assertion. But I missed any 'reason' behind it.

"this is about someone drowning an animal and calling it painless. It's twisted and wrong" or maybe it's about somebody trying to quickly and expeditiously rid an area of vermin to protect home and flock and being told that is immoral without a basis for the claim other than the mere assertion.