Mille Fleur Leghorn Thread PIC HEAVY

[graciel57]

"Has anyone crossed them with Exchequers????? I have extra MFL roos and may give it a go. GENETICS anyone wants to share???? I played with it on the chicken calculator and it looks like the second generation would start to produce some MFL looking pullets and roos. I would think another back cross to a MFL would show some big improvements in the MFL color. I am hoping the crossing will give them so vigor in the chicks. I have not hat the best luck with them. They do tent to be very small..... so were my Exchequers till I crossed them with WL. They are much heartier now. Leghorn to leghorn seems the most logical cross to me at this point..... AND I don't have SS.

"

DMRippy, I've been working with these birds with very slow progress for the last five years or so. My original birds were stock that originated with Ron Nelson and I don't know what his crosses were to start out. Sandhill also had these birds, as far as I know. People say Speckled Sussex and I'm inclined to believe it since they are so unLeghorn like, however, some of those original eggs I received hatched out black chicks (with mottling), which makes it possible there was Ancona involved. The birds I had first laid smallish tinted eggs, were quiet and nearly dopey birds. My original birds had E, e+, and wheaten that I know of.

I only used those birds for one season and they were so off type that I crossed them out to McMurray's Pearl Leghorns the next year. I'm really interested only in egg production, but I'd like something that at least looks and acts like a Leghorn even if I don't show at all.

In any case, the Pearls have quite a kitchen sink full of genes. They of course have the Dominant white, which is a real PITA as you have to hatch out a lot to get some birds with colour. Then I was faced with getting rid of Black, blue, barring, and wild+ type while trying to retain mottling. At this point I've a few birds that look not too bad, but I'm scrambling to find wheaten in them now. I think it's still in there, but I'm going to have to do a lot of hatching to find it for sure again. I have hatched hundreds of chicks from the Pearl crosses and I have three MF hens from last year, and three from this year. My roosters have been almost certainly only carrying one mottling gene, which also makes things difficult. I'm hoping to make some good strides this year, though. I've found it slow going to bring all of the genes together in individual birds to say the least.

If anyone is attempting to make these from scratch, you do yourself no favours by using the Speckled Sussex. Definitely stick with the Leghorns if you can manage it.

BTW, it is rather interesting to do the crosses with the Pearl Leghorns. I have had some wonderful Red Pyles out of the crosses, blue barred and crele types, and something that looks related to the dun gene, but don't think it is. Just some interesting things floating around through them. You may "not get to there from here", but it's fun all the same.

 

[DMRippy]

I have crossed WL into my Exchequers and ended up with Blues.... have not seen barring yet...... I may still cross a pullet with my MFL Roo just to see what I get. Can't hurt..... colored leghorns if nothing else. I only get about half white chicks so that is better than with a PURE WL.... 100% should be white.

I was told on a genetics thread to you brown leghorns to improve them. Hatchery would work and help with production too I would think. I am going to pickup a couple the next time I get feed I hope

I didn't want to get a new breed but you got to do what you got to do..... right? I have 3 MFL roo and 1 Pullet so 2 Brown Leghorns with a MFL should improve vigor if nothing else. I have more MFL eggs coming but I need more projects to work on in the mean time LOL

They are so pretty, but if the chicks are not hearty and they are lacking in Leghorn type and production we need to do something. I don't have SS.... so Brown Leghorns are what I will work with.

 

[graciel57]

As I understand it, breeders of white chickens put anything and everything into their whites to make them as white as possible. So barring, Columbian, blue, anything that will restrict colour is in there to make sure any off feather that might show up is as least coloured as possible, and will show the least. Going by that, it's possible mottling is in a lot of white birds as well, but since I was already working with that I can't say one way or another on the Pearls.

Brown Leghorns are a good way of going at it since you won't be wading through a whole lot of white cull birds like I did with the Pearls. My main reason for using the Pearls was to get good laying ability for sure in the birds, and I've got that now, plus the eggs are whiter. Wasn't sure if the Browns that were available were as good, and since they were going to be diluted, I wanted the best egg laying I could get. Still not as white shelled as I'd like, but that's something to work towards over time, as well as egg laying.

I think the most difficulty facing me is going to be getting a pure wheaten base in these birds. Early on I also used a Buff Leghorn, but they were small, not very good layers, and took the "activity level" of Leghorns to new heights (literally, some of the time). I culled everything out that was related to them after only a year or two. Not only were they not as good a bird as I wanted, buff itself has a lot of genes in it that I didn't want to deal with, especially when the feed prices were as high as they've been.

Well, if it were easy everyone would be doing it. The fun is in the journey, anyway. Good luck with yours, Donna!

 

[Freeholder]

I will hopefully be getting some hatching eggs from CackleJoy in late February (Yay!). Our winters can be pretty cold (we are at about 4,500' elevation in Eastern Oregon, high desert climate), so I'd like to get a rose comb into my birds. It sounds like my best bet would be to cross some rose-comb brown Leghorn into them, then keep crossing back to the Mille Fleurs. Can anyone recommend a good quality source of RC Brown Leghorns? Preferably West Coast.... I don't mind if it takes a few years.

Thanks!

Kathleen

 

[CackleJoy]

I will hopefully be getting some hatching eggs from CackleJoy in late February (Yay!). Our winters can be pretty cold (we are at about 4,500' elevation in Eastern Oregon, high desert climate), so I'd like to get a rose comb into my birds. It sounds like my best bet would be to cross some rose-comb brown Leghorn into them, then keep crossing back to the Mille Fleurs. Can anyone recommend a good quality source of RC Brown Leghorns? Preferably West Coast.... I don't mind if it takes a few years.

Thanks!

Kathleen

Hi - oddly enough I know of a source! I don't think they are on BYC. I will ask if I can forward on his information to you. Then you could go from there, getting pictures etc. He's a deacon in our church

Just found out recently we both had unique leghorns. I will PM you his info after I get permission.

 

[Freeholder]

Thank you! How neat to find someone so close to you!

Kathleen

 

[Geneticsnut]

[COLOR=333333]"Has anyone crossed them with Exchequers?????  I have extra MFL roos and may give it a go.  GENETICS anyone wants to share????  I played with it on the chicken calculator and it looks like the second generation would start to produce some MFL looking pullets and roos.  I would think another back cross to a MFL would show some big improvements in the MFL color.  I am hoping the crossing will give them so vigor in the chicks.  I have not hat the best luck with them.  They do tent to be very small..... so were my Exchequers till I crossed them with WL.  They are much heartier now. Leghorn to leghorn seems the most logical cross to me at this point..... AND I don't have SS.  [/COLOR][COLOR=333333] [/COLOR]"

DMRippy, I've been working with these birds with very slow progress for the last five years or so.  My original birds were stock that originated with Ron Nelson and I don't know what his crosses were to start out.  Sandhill also had these birds, as far as I know.  People say Speckled Sussex and I'm inclined to believe it since they are so unLeghorn like, however, some of those original eggs I received hatched out black chicks (with mottling), which makes it possible there was Ancona involved.  The birds I had first laid smallish tinted eggs, were quiet and nearly dopey birds.  My original birds had E, e+, and wheaten that I know of.

I only used those birds for one season and they were so off type that I crossed them out to McMurray's Pearl Leghorns the next year.  I'm really interested only in egg production, but I'd like something that at least looks and acts like a Leghorn even if I don't show at all.

In any case, the Pearls have quite a kitchen sink full of genes.  They of course have the Dominant white, which is a real PITA as you have to hatch out a lot to get some birds with colour.  Then I was faced with getting rid of Black, blue, barring, and wild+ type while trying to retain mottling.  At this point I've a few birds that look not too bad, but I'm scrambling to find wheaten in them now.  I think it's still in there, but I'm going to have to do a lot of hatching to find it for sure again.  I have hatched hundreds of chicks from the Pearl crosses and I have three MF hens from last year, and three from this year.  My roosters have been almost certainly only carrying one mottling gene, which also makes things difficult.  I'm hoping to make some good strides this year, though.  I've found it slow going to bring all of the genes together in individual birds to say the least.

If anyone is attempting to make these from scratch, you do yourself no favours by using the Speckled Sussex.  Definitely stick with the Leghorns if you can manage it.

BTW, it is rather interesting to do the crosses with the Pearl Leghorns.  I have had some wonderful Red Pyles out of the crosses, blue barred and crele types, and something that looks related to the dun gene, but don't think it is.  Just some interesting things floating around through them.  You may "not get to there from here", but it's fun all the same.

I have been using exchequers onto light browns in the development of spangled leghorns and have learned that exchequers have more than one spangle gene. They posses the typical white feather tip type along with at least one other type that causes a mottle effect wherein entire feathers are white. Both, or all, of them are simple recessive genes so it's difficult to know which birds carry the undesirable mottle gene(s). I've noticed some MFL pic on this thread that also posses one or more of the mottle genes so maybe more people have used exchequers in the development of mille fluers.

 

[DMRippy]

Quote: Is this the look in exchequers that could work in MFL??? To my untrained eye these look more like reg mottleing than exchequer mottleing. I did acquire a Speckled Sussex pullet to help too. I really like the MFL but if I can't keep the chicks alive they have to go.....

 

[Geneticsnut]

The proper mille fleur color requires each feather to be tipped with a black (or blue) band and white tip. A good percentage of your exchequers feathers are completely white, which is caused by a trait that is undesirable for mille fleur color. The combination of mottling and spangling genes are what cause an exchequer to express extreme whitening, which is desirable for their "protocol". It may be better to use Ancona because they have only the spangle gene. Yes, Ancona have white skin but it is a dominant trait so will be much easier to breed away from because it's always visable when present.

 

[graciel57]

I have been using exchequers onto light browns in the development of spangled leghorns and have learned that exchequers have more than one spangle gene. They posses the typical white feather tip type along with at least one other type that causes a mottle effect wherein entire feathers are white. Both, or all, of them are simple recessive genes so it's difficult to know which birds carry the undesirable mottle gene(s). I've noticed some MFL pic on this thread that also posses one or more of the mottle genes so maybe more people have used exchequers in the development of mille fluers.

My copy of Poultry Breeding and Genetics by Crawford is 24 years old now, so I don't know if anything has changed with the knowledge on mottling/pied. Carefoot thought that mottling and pied are the same thing with modifier genes making the mottling appear as pied (full white feathers as the Exchequers can have). The other theory, which Crawford said seemed as likely is that there were two genes that were both incompletely dominant. I've read in other places that Exchequers are hard to keep as white as they are supposed to be, that they tend to go back towards being dominated by black if you don't keep on top of the breeding, so this to me seems like Carefoot had the right idea with one gene (mottling) being directed by modifiers (probably more than one) whether it expressed as larger amounts of white. If this is true, you should be able to use Exchequers for Mille Fleur if you wanted to. Or I suppose you might like the look of a jazzed up Mille Fleur type bird with a lot of white, but I don't think you should be calling it Mille Fleur at that point, if you did achieve it.

DMRippy, those birds there are showing what I meant about Exchequers going towards black. As I understand it, Exchequers are supposed to show more white than black. You probably could use those to work towards Mille Fleurs considering the way mottling is presenting on them. That blue mottled hen looks fun.