minimal feeding requirements

[mobius]

My experience with Deep Litter has been positive IF I use pine shavings and IF the bedding has contact with the ground (it needs the microbes from the soil).

Straw and leaves mold for me in my cool wet PNW area....mold grows so quickly. I have to really watch spilled feed that gets moist as it will be moldy in a few days. (Some weather patterns are much worse than others, so mold conditions come and go somewhat).

So question for those who ferment...and especially those in cool, wet areas....do you have trouble with molding?

How do you "ferment" a bag of feed? Poor some water on it and let it sit in the can? I can almost assuredly get mold that way in no time. (I mistakenly left the feed can lid off, and rain hit the feed molding within a few days. I had to dump the remaining feed and start with a fresh dry bag).

I'm very interested in fermenting, just not sure how to safely go about it in my area.

As to the OP's question, I find my hens honestly do best on standardized layer feed for egg quality...much more so than all flock with oyster or calcite grit. The egg quality and production is much better. As I have limited range, (1/3 acre for them), they free range all day, but I believe they must get most of their nutrients through feed as they over graze the area (I average 15 birds plus broodies with grow outs, although I've cut back for this winter honestly to save costs and some work).

I have at times gone to produce stores and collected vegetable toss outs. Talk to the produce manager. One store is very happy to let people have their trimmings for free as it saves them garbage costs. It is a good way to get free plant greens, but the content does vary depending upon the season and who you deal with.

My yard stays pretty green all year, so grass and such is not too much of an issue, unless the birds have really overgrazed. I attempt a gate system to keep that in check. I say attempt as they are all Houdini's (even with wing clips) and love to get onto the "people" side and into the fresh grass.

Protein is more of an issue. I do find mine do better on 18% to 20% protein pretty much all year, though I can cut back to 16% in summer, so I target that in layer feed.

I have switched from the big name brands to a smaller, lesser known brand, after researching its content. It is about $4 cheaper for 50lbs (around $12.99), though only 16% protein. I have mixed all flock or even chick start with layer 16% to boost protein with good result.

The most important thing for me is to hang the feeders at beak height to avoid billing out a lot. I also do best if I feed only in the coop (it has a built in tray) and lock the birds tight in the coop. That cuts down on rodent loss during the night (but not the daytime). Putting cayenne pepper (when I remember to), does honestly help with rodent loss as the oils in the pepper affect the rodents but not the chickens.

I've gone around full circle on worming. My daughter studied to be a Vet Tech while still at home, and we used my flock as her "guinea pigs." Even on healthy birds, there is a worm presence. Vets obviously promoted seasonal worming, which we began; however, the FDA has made that more and more difficult as they have now pretty much pulled all products off the shelves. There is currently no FDA approved wormer for laying hens (matters if you sell eggs and want to remain within FDA approval for customer purposes).

I've tried herbals, with limited success. Herbals really rely on field rotation as they flush the bird's system but don't kill the worms outright (leaving them alive and well for pick up by the next bird, along with the intermediary stages).

With small holdings, field rotation can be hard. I do clean out my runs seasonally, usually twice a year. Actually I have my gardening friends do that for me. They gleefully come with shovels and buckets in tow as they scoop the black gold for free from my DL method in run.

So I am now focusing on sustainability in regards to worming and culling those who are problematic (birds not gardening friends). Lazy Gardener has stated a truth, an epiphany really, that 10% of the birds have 90% of the parasites, and thereby act as a vector for the others. With little ability to treat any more, I now cull (spelled KILL for me as I'm ridding the flock of the weaker less healthy).

The old timers swear by that method, and I think there is some real argument. With increased meds comes increased problems. Almost all meds eventually build a resistance in the microbe or parasite they are attempting to eradicate leaving the animal keeper back in the same boat only with weaker animals. I've had old time breeders tell me to cull any who can't simply exist on their own two feet. I am beginning to see the wisdom in that, obviously after good stewardship (clean feed, water, litter management).

My thoughts.
LofMc

Hey there! Some thoughts in response:

I believe the fermented feed makes the digestive tract of our chickens so much healthier that they are more able to "throw off" a worm load. I agree that probably most chickens have worms. Kind of like coccidia. The point is in both cases about managing the load in their systems. I think the herbs and the pumpkin are excellent for prevention of overload, perhaps not so much for treatment of overload with the possible exception of wormwood (artemesia).

I only make enough FF for 2-3 days so it doesn't mold. And then I leave a little in the jar and "backslop" it by adding more feed and water. Works like a charm. I keep the dry feed in a large rolling plastic "hamper" that closes solidly. It also is inside. As you probably know, there are great threads here about FF. So when you ferment, you don't need to do ALL the feed at once. And, i keep the FF inside...but regardless of weather with the exception of getting too cold, the FF should be just fine. Stir twice a day. That is about it. I think you might be pleasantly surprised at the health of your flock going forward. I started feeding the chicks FF at about a week old...I really wanted to catch their little systems early.

As far as billing out and food waste, I actually (the horror) fling the FF and fermented alfalfa On The Ground. As long as there is no snow. This makes sure no one bird is hogging the feeder. I know about how much they eat and there is no waste. By mutual agreement!

I only give them as much as they will eat on a daily basis. They have a four gallon bucket in the coop with dry food and two feeding holes (no billing out there either) if I accidentally underfeed them....but they don't use much of it.

Finally i have been giving them a supper of barley fodder (just started this week). I love watching them chirp at each other and peep and quarrel and pull it apart and eat all of it. Then they can go to sleep with their crops full.

All of this is a work in progress. I have to say I am glad I have only six, but I could easily do this stuff on a larger scale. And I am feeling things are only getting better as I go.

Hope this helps.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Hey there! Some thoughts in response:

I believe the fermented feed makes the digestive tract of our chickens so much healthier that they are more able to "throw off" a worm load. I agree that probably most chickens have worms. Kind of like coccidia. The point is in both cases about managing the load in their systems. I think the herbs and the pumpkin are excellent for prevention of overload, perhaps not so much for treatment of overload with the possible exception of wormwood (artemesia).

I only make enough FF for 2-3 days so it doesn't mold. And then I leave a little in the jar and "backslop" it by adding more feed and water. Works like a charm. I keep the dry feed in a large rolling plastic "hamper" that closes solidly. It also is inside. As you probably know, there are great threads here about FF. So when you ferment, you don't need to do ALL the feed at once. And, i keep the FF inside...but regardless of weather with the exception of getting too cold, the FF should be just fine. Stir twice a day. That is about it. I think you might be pleasantly surprised at the health of your flock going forward. I started feeding the chicks FF at about a week old...I really wanted to catch their little systems early.

As far as billing out and food waste, I actually (the horror) fling the FF and fermented alfalfa On The Ground. As long as there is no snow. This makes sure no one bird is hogging the feeder. I know about how much they eat and there is no waste. By mutual agreement!

I only give them as much as they will eat on a daily basis. They have a four gallon bucket in the coop with dry food and two feeding holes (no billing out there either) if I accidentally underfeed them....but they don't use much of it.

Finally i have been giving them a supper of barley fodder (just started this week). I love watching them chirp at each other and peep and quarrel and pull it apart and eat all of it. Then they can go to sleep with their crops full.

All of this is a work in progress. I have to say I am glad I have only six, but I could easily do this stuff on a larger scale. And I am feeling things are only getting better as I go.

Hope this helps.

Okay, that makes sense...ferment in small batches....thank you for the clarification.

As to gut health, I keep ACV, with mother, in the water at all times. I also use a feed that has probiotics and prebiotics.

Herbal treats are given in a mash with yogurt to also boost gut flora. That definitely helps.

But over time, the worm load simply builds up in the soil, especially for small holder, especially for those of us with warmer winters. (You who have freezing cold winters with weeks of snow have mother nature working for you).

In our wet, moist, generally mild Oregon, we have to really watch out for worm loads and coccidia. Gut health is the first step; but field and litter management is essential too.

LofMc

 

[mobius]

Okay, that makes sense...ferment in small batches....thank you for the clarification.

As to gut health, I keep ACV, with mother, in the water at all times. I also use a feed that has probiotics and prebiotics.

Herbal treats are given in a mash with yogurt to also boost gut flora. That definitely helps.

But over time, the worm load simply builds up in the soil, especially for small holder, especially for those of us with warmer winters. (You who have freezing cold winters with weeks of snow have mother nature working for you).

In our wet, moist, generally mild Oregon, we have to really watch out for worm loads and coccidia. Gut health is the first step; but field and litter management is essential too.

LofMc

Quite correct about the weather and I had not thought about that at all. Here's hoping you try FF and it goes well for you. Wish I could help with the litter/field management but you are correct, it is not something I have to apparently think about here in Montana much if at all. i can see where the wet weather would not be much help. So yes start with the gut, as you are, and then manage the environment...

 

[lazy gardener]

Lady of McCamley, Mobius did an excellent job of answering your FF question. If you want more info, there is an excellent article with research written by TT in my signature line. Think of FF as being a perpetual sour dough starter. No matter what your climate, given the right temperature, you could keep a healthy sour dough starter going. Only, in this case, it's FF. Use what you need today, and add more "food" to the bucket to keep those yeasties and bacteria well fed and nourished. As long as you don't completely clean out your bucket, your culture will last indefinitely. And all of those beneficial organisms will gobble up any bad guys that happen along. I've NEVER seen mold associated with my FF. And, if there were a bit that showed up around the edges, I'd simply stir it in. Many newbies are scared to death when they first start fermenting. They toss the batch if it smells a bit odd. Based on what is in the feed that you are using, it will smell nice and yeasty, or if your feed has animal product in it, or is a bit strong, it can smell like vomit. All good, and the chickens suck it down and ask for more. Sometimes, newbies will toss a batch b/c they see a white film over the top, or even a grey or brownish layer. All good. That is your SCOBY (symbiotic culture of bacteria and yeast) Stir it in and proceed. It's absolutely NOT NECESSARY to keep your FF covered with a layer of water as some misguided folks claim. I keep my FF nice and thick. The spoon stands up in it. A plop of FF holds it's shape. I could write my name in it with my fingers, much the same as you might write your name in the sand at the beach.

On FF, my birds grow faster, their feathers look better, the pullets start laying sooner, and the flock lays all winter compared to flocks of my friends and neighbors who's flock eat the same exact feed without the ferment.

If you use FF, you can dispense with the ACV in your water b/c the ferment acidifies the gut.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Okay, that makes sense...ferment in small batches....thank you for the clarification.

As to gut health, I keep ACV, with mother, in the water at all times. I also use a feed that has probiotics and prebiotics.

Herbal treats are given in a mash with yogurt to also boost gut flora. That definitely helps.

But over time, the worm load simply builds up in the soil, especially for small holder, especially for those of us with warmer winters. (You who have freezing cold winters with weeks of snow have mother nature working for you).

In our wet, moist, generally mild Oregon, we have to really watch out for worm loads and coccidia. Gut health is the first step; but field and litter management is essential too.

LofMc

I feed about 50 chickens on Ca/Or coastal border... SO same basic environment here, And I love it.

I use an 18 gallon tote and ferment 50# at a time... 2 of them. 1 ferments for the week that I feed out the other. I JUST make sure I stir each once per day and have zero mold in my FF. Like yous say, mold grows in days on everything here!!! On things you wouldn't expect. There are so many mold spores in the air, that our couch in another room had to be thrown out from mold growing on the arms or anywhere that hadn't been sat on. Happens to our cars seats to...

To me the key is make sure it gets stirred once per day. Smaller batches takes to much effort on my part. I keep my bins out in the yard and the lid covers loosely enough even when snapped on to let gasses escape but keep critters out.

I probably wouldn't choose to do FF and acv full time. I don't do acv because SOMETHING starts growing in my well water within 2 days. Lot's of feeds do have the pre and probiotics in them these days. Even ones that don't tout it on their label. But the digestion difference of the FF is for me the convincing factor. I did start with small batches to make sure I was getting it right.

Yep, yep... wet pasture makes for special conditions.

 

[BYC-user-452147]

I keep my coop pretty open air in the summer but close it up in the winter. I leave one panel open in the winter so mosture doesn't build up.

 

[3riverschick]

I see this thread is called "minimum requirements". These are what I consider minimum requirements for layers to produce good fertile ,nutritious eggs.

For those who don't free range ... about three weeks before they start laying ...add to their water 1/2 tsp per quart of Bovidr Labs Poultry Nutri Drench . give them a daily helping of probiotics. Aldi's organic plain vanilla yogurt is real good
and I would sprout forage oats for them too. HTTP://www.plotspike.com
forage oats are known to help bring the hens into lay and to help the boys produce more robust sperm. feed the birds one cubic inch per bird of 4 - 7 day old sprouted forage oats as green feed in addition to their daily ration. you can feed them more... if their poops get soft, just hold back a little bit till they form up again .
also make sure they have the right size Grit. they should be eating adult grit by now . it will help grind up the food better so they'll be more nutrition for more eggs.
Oops, forgot oyster shell for calcium.
And of course , a quality crumble.
best,
Karen

 

[WldFlwrs]

My neighbors medicate for worms and anything else they can think of and have more problems than I've ever seen. Worms in the eggs!

We have used Apple Cider Vinegar (either homemade or the real stuff from the store) and have never had any health issues with our birds.

When I say the "real stuff" from the store...I mean don't buy Apple Cider FLAVORED vinegar. Make sure it is actual apple cider vinegar.
I have to say my homemade gets stronger smelling and tasting that store bought too.

Feed is Nutrena Layena Pellets (16%)
Mixed Grains Scratch in the evening
Meal worms in morning and evening
Flock Block, grit and crushed oyster shell available at all times.

We have 48 hens (plus 3 more new pullets and 5 cockerels we just got to put with a broody hen). We had 25-35 eggs per day during the winter this year.
We are already up to 36-42 eggs per day. Our chickens are healthy, pretty and laying very well.

As a side note - the chicks we bought from TSC and put under 3 broody hens have been better than any we raised in the barn. They did everything sooner than our barn raised. They seem happier, healthier. and much more active than any of the other chicks we raised. They were raised in the coop with the rest of the flock with three broody moms to raise them. No issues and the flock has taken them in stride. Will never do the barn again. We'll repeat the chicks under the broody hen any day!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

My neighbors medicate for worms and anything else they can think of and have more problems than I've ever seen. Worms in the eggs!

We have used Apple Cider Vinegar (either homemade or the real stuff from the store) and have never had any health issues with our birds.

When I say the "real stuff" from the store...I mean don't buy Apple Cider FLAVORED vinegar. Make sure it is actual apple cider vinegar.
I have to say my homemade gets stronger smelling and tasting that store bought too.

Feed is Nutrena Layena Pellets (16%)
Mixed Grains Scratch in the evening
Meal worms in morning and evening
Flock Block, grit and crushed oyster shell available at all times.

We have 48 hens (plus 3 more new pullets and 5 cockerels we just got to put with a broody hen). We had 25-35 eggs per day during the winter this year.
We are already up to 36-42 eggs per day. Our chickens are healthy, pretty and laying very well.

As a side note - the chicks we bought from TSC and put under 3 broody hens have been better than any we raised in the barn. They did everything sooner than our barn raised. They seem happier, healthier. and much more active than any of the other chicks we raised. They were raised in the coop with the rest of the flock with three broody moms to raise them. No issues and the flock has taken them in stride. Will never do the barn again. We'll repeat the chicks under the broody hen any day!

But the amount of eggs you get per day can be relative to the breeds you have as well as their age... my rocks will NEVER lay on par with my leghorn or a RIR.

And an older bird will lay a larger egg than the same breed younger bird, but maybe not quite as often... my first year pullets regardless of breed will lay sometime 21 days in a row before taking a day off and then back to another 21 days in a row. I never expect sporadic laying from my older girls. I want consistent laying.

The ones at the store that you are describing as ACV... get one that says "raw, unfiltered, WITH mother".. that's the "real" stuff. Lots of people seem to make their own, I have never tried.

I hatched chicks in Feb,,, gave 4 to a broody and brooded the rest myself. 100% they do almost everything faster when raised by mama, except feathering and growing. The broody raised were smaller because they were sleeping at night while my lamp raised were eating all night. I will be curious to see if it levels out, regarding if I'm raising them for meat if that makes a difference. And there was ABSOLUTELY no difference in how fast they feathered. Yes, the broody BOYS may have been more adjusted to the outdoor temp, but they feathered at exactly the same rate. The broody boys are higher in the pecking order already because mama helped them in. And they already range most of my property while the indoor chicks only range close to the coop for now. I know that WILL even out. And broody's aren't without any work, you still need to clean out the nest. I kept the ones indoors as they were meant as pets and broody chicks are more people shy than hand raised.... but for my future purposes, I believe the people caution will fade as they reach maturity... because when I had a flighty chick rub off on the whole brood, by the time they grow up, they all have their own personalities and decide weather they wanna approach or not. All my chicks will be broody raised in the future!

I knew it was a good goal, but didn't know it was a possibility. But ugh.. I'm breaking broody's every day right now.

But as a compliment to my set up... the boys did insist on hanging out in the area that was set up for the other chicks. And mama was perfectly happy to introduce the pecking order to any baby that didn't belong to her!

So to sum it up, since this is about saving $ feeding... broody raised or MHP/ heating cave raised chicks should have less consumption than those under a lamp. And in many breeds has been proven to increase fertility by not having birds overfed during their growing cycle. So what they are doing to keep meaties from getting to fat too fast... by restricting feed is actually natural and being awake porking out all night isn't? Go figure!

ETA: save money by getting lighter breeds that require less feed. They also usually lay more often. If you have too many eggs and aren't selling them, feed them back to the flock. And if you don't already recycle their shells to them, no harm and they like the shells. Don't throw them out. Sorry if that's already been mentioned.

 

[3riverschick]

[quote name="EggSighted4Life"

So to sum it up, since this is about saving $ feeding... broody raised or MHP/ heating cave raised chicks should have less consumption than those under a lamp.

Reference or scientific study please for the above statement.
Thank you

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And in many breeds has been proven to increase fertility by not having birds overfed during their growing cycle. So what they are doing to keep meaties from getting to fat too fast... by restricting feed is actually natural and being awake porking out all night isn't? Go figure!


Reference or scientific study please for the above statement. Thank you.
Best,
Karen
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