NON GMO feeds

[Chris09]

So in reality the Rutgers tomato is not an Heirloom tomato but instead it is a hybrid tomato that has been bred out or allowed to breed on without any new crosses being made every year, thus allowing it by genetic drift to express the undesirable traits of its parent stock as well as show some of the favorable traits that once made the Rutgers hybrid tomato popular on industrial farms.

You seem to agree with me in regards to the diminished esteem that most home guarders now hold for Rutgers Tomatoes.

Its still a heirloom tomato, in fact its still the tomato of old but it just has some traits have changed over the years.
This can be seen in all heirloom fruits/vegetables, over the years some traits are lost.

 

[CrazyTalk]

Also Big Ag lobbying in the US Government and on the world stage is not a conspiracy, its fact. The question is what impact it has; which if extrapolated from the laws and regulations passed indicates pretty heavily that Big Ag has its butt firmly in the drivers seat.

Of course BigAg lobbies the government. Every industry does - the point is, that Big Organic is bigger than Big Ag, and spends more money lobbying - but that doesnt make a good story.


Also, there's no dearth of info here, there's literally decades worth of studies, and no evidence of harm, and the "controversy" is about the same level as that on climate change - there's consensus in the scientific world, and a completely different opinion in the common public.

 

[CrazyTalk]

So in reality the Rutgers tomato is not an Heirloom tomato but instead it is a hybrid tomato that has been bred out or allowed to breed on without any new crosses being made every year,

Any tomato that is open pollinated and produces offspring roughly the same as it is an heirloom. That's pretty much the definition - whether it's the same as it was 50 years ago is irrelevant.

Many of the heirlooms were hybrids that were stabilized through a couple generations of selecting traits.

 

[chickengeorgeto]

Its still a heirloom tomato, in fact its still the tomato of old but it just has some traits have changed over the years.
This can be seen in all heirloom fruits/vegetables, over the years some traits are lost.

Tomatoes are self fertile and in nature they do not cross pollinate with other tomato plants. The whole thing behind Heirloom plants are their appeal to humans' snob or exclusive nature. Heirloom plants supposedly possess superior but unchanging taste, and growth habits. If a whole Heirloom tomato variety like the Rutgers Tomato can out of the blue go bad on you without any warning or without outside genetic material being added, then what's the big deal with Heirloom plants?

Yea, I don't know either Chris, but by Rutgers Tomatoes not breeding true as you freely admit, that is ample proof that this tomato variety is not a Heirloom variety as some seed sellers advertise it to be but instead it is a hybrid tomato that was just bred on from a successful crossbreed or hybrid tomato to quote you, "... some traits have changed over the years." It seems that the Rutgers Tomato was bred on from the original Rutgers hybrid without any attempt to breed out the objectionable traits that the parent stocks possessed. Caveat emptor!

 

[Chris09]

Tomatoes are self fertile and in nature they do not cross pollinate with other tomato plants. The whole thing behind Heirloom plants are their appeal to humans' snob or exclusive nature. Heirloom plants supposedly possess superior but unchanging taste, and growth habits. If a whole Heirloom tomato variety like the Rutgers Tomato can out of the blue go bad on you without any warning or without outside genetic material being added, then what's the big deal with Heirloom plants?

Yea, I don't know either Chris, but by Rutgers Tomatoes not breeding true as you freely admit, that is ample proof that this tomato variety is not a Heirloom variety as some seed sellers advertise it to be but instead it is a hybrid tomato that was just bred on from a successful crossbreed or hybrid tomato to quote you, "... some traits have changed over the years." It seems that the Rutgers Tomato was bred on from the original Rutgers hybrid without any attempt to breed out the objectionable traits that the parent stocks possessed. Caveat emptor!

I did not say that Rutgers did not breed true, what I said was;
"Its still a heirloom tomato, in fact its still the tomato of old but it just has some traits have changed over the years. This can be seen in all heirloom fruits/vegetables, over the years some traits are lost."

Most if not all smaller seed companies collect seeds from "fruit" that look like the parent "fruit", they don't care about taste or plant growth compared to original stock, most of the bigger seed companies collect seeds from not only correct "fruit" but also for strong, health, vigorous plants that have correct growing habits but still lack in the tasting area.

Now most backyard gardeners have no idea how to correctly save seeds and in turn see offspring that are not anything like the plant should be. The sad thing is that there are a lot of these backyard growers that are selling these seeds and call themselves a "heirloom seed seller".

 

[chickengeorgeto]

Its still a heirloom tomato, in fact its still the tomato of old but it just has some traits have changed over the years.
This can be seen in all heirloom fruits/vegetables, over the years some traits are lost.

I will take you ideas under advisement but I am pretty sure that my tomato plants will not grow avocados or watermelons on them at any time in the foreseeable future. And if all that was necessary for a vegetable verity to be considered an Heirloom variety was for it to be open pollinated then every commercially grown GMO crop would qualify for Heirloom status because from sweet corn to orange juice all commercially produced GMO food items are open pollinated.

Here is a snippet of info from that Wikipedia thingy that you have so much trouble believing or understanding, but I can assure you that this sight's information about Heirloom, aka Heritage tomatoes or inbred tomatoes is correct. and the information on hybrid lines is also correct. I didn't say that the Wikipedia thingy was expansive knowledge but that it was a good sound primer on Heirloom tomatoes and most other self fertile plants who don't sleep around.

The red and bold red text below was added by myself to guide the reader to a better understanding of the subject.

"Heirloom seeds "breed true," unlike the seeds of hybridized plants. Both sides of the DNA in an heirloom variety come from a common stable cultivar, in contrast to hybridized seeds, which combine different cultivars. The hybrids exhibit "hybrid vigor" in the first generation, but the second generation tends to exhibit many undesirable recessive traits. Heirloom tomato varieties are "open pollinating", but cross-pollination is very rare without human intervention.
Heirloom seeds can be easily collected and will continue to show the traits of the original seed because this family of tomatoes almost always self-pollinate. Collecting heirloom seed is as easy as picking ripe tomatoes, chopping or mashing into a jar till less than half-full, filling with water, shaking from time to time and allowing to decompose for 1–6 days until seeds sink to the bottom, then rinsing until the seeds are clean, and drying. This decomposition is beneficial because it discourages transmission of diseases to the seed, the drying promotes better germination, and because the seeds are easier to separate when they are clean."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heirloom_tomato
.

 

[Chris09]

I will take you ideas under advisement but I am pretty sure that my tomato plants will not grow avocados or watermelons on them at any time in the foreseeable future. And if all that was necessary for a vegetable verity to be considered an Heirloom variety was for it to be open pollinated then every commercially grown GMO crop would qualify for Heirloom status because from sweet corn to orange juice all commercially produced GMO food items are open pollinated.

Here is a snippet of info from that Wikipedia thingy that you have so much trouble believing or understanding, but I can assure you that this sight's information about Heirloom, aka Heritage tomatoes or inbred tomatoes is correct. and the information on hybrid lines is also correct. I didn't say that the Wikipedia thingy was expansive knowledge but that it was a good sound primer on Heirloom tomatoes and most other self fertile plants who don't sleep around.

The red and bold red text below was added by myself to guide the reader to a better understanding of the subject.

"Heirloom seeds "breed true," unlike the seeds of hybridized plants. Both sides of the DNA in an heirloom variety come from a common stable cultivar, in contrast to hybridized seeds, which combine different cultivars. The hybrids exhibit "hybrid vigor" in the first generation, but the second generation tends to exhibit many undesirable recessive traits. Heirloom tomato varieties are "open pollinating", but cross-pollination is very rare without human intervention.
Heirloom seeds can be easily collected and will continue to show the traits of the original seed because this family of tomatoes almost always self-pollinate. Collecting heirloom seed is as easy as picking ripe tomatoes, chopping or mashing into a jar till less than half-full, filling with water, shaking from time to time and allowing to decompose for 1–6 days until seeds sink to the bottom, then rinsing until the seeds are clean, and drying. This decomposition is beneficial because it discourages transmission of diseases to the seed, the drying promotes better germination, and because the seeds are easier to separate when they are clean."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heirloom_tomato
.

Quote: Heirloom variety was for it to be open pollinated then every commercially grown GMO crop would qualify for Heirloom status because from sweet corn to orange juice all commercially produced GMO food items are open pollinated.
I don't believe I said anything about open pollinated.
Now as for commercially produced GMO foods being open pollinated, some could be BUT a good percentage of them are hybrids.

Quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heirloom_tomato

That definition is some what correct but there are other factors like how heirloom seed will breed true under ideal conditions and if some of these conditions are not met then they slowly become something unlike there parent stock.

If I had the time I could start posting information from the books and notes that I have here form years of gardening, horticulture classes in school and 15 years of owning and running a greenhouse business but heres a good start for you.

http://blogs.extension.org/mastergardener/2013/03/21/saving-seeds-harvesting-the-future/

Hybrid plants are the result of a controlled breeding process, developed through a series of crosses where the parent plants impart the offspring with desirable traits. The breeding process can be long and involved, especially since the process is so controlled. The benefit to newer hybrids is that there has been a focus on disease resistance, where the plants usually have fewer diseases and thus requires fewer pest control inputs. Hybrids also benefit from what is called “hybrid vigor,” where the plants exhibit stronger, more vital growth, higher yields and even higher survival from the seedling stage.
The big drawback with hybrids, especially for those who are interested in saving seeds, is that you really can’t do so with most hybrids. Due to the long, involved process in developing the hybrid, the genetics of the hybrid aren’t stable enough to allow the seeds to be self-sustaining. This means that instead of traits of the parent plant, you end up with a random mix of traits from the grandparent plants and earlier generations.

Common Misconceptions: Hybrids and GMOs are Not the Same

One misconception that I’ve seen is that folks think that hybrids are genetically modified organisms. This isn’t true-they are developed from many generations of natural breeding that is directed by human hands. The fact of the matter is that there are currently no genetically modified seeds or plants available to the general public. Genetically modified organisms are developed through direct genetic modification in a lab, usually using DNA insertion or deletion. Currently, you will only find these seeds in commodity crops, such as field corn, soy, cotton, etc. For more information, see this discussion Are GMO Seeds Available for Purchase?

Open-pollinated plants are those who have stable genetics, where seeds can be saved with a promise that the offspring will be similar. Due to the variability of the natural pollination process, though, there may be variations from individual to individual. In order to save seeds, though, it is often necessary to isolate the plants to ensure that there is no cross pollination from other varieties in the garden, in the neighbors garden and sometimes as far as miles away. (I hope to discuss this topic in a follow-up article.)

Heirlooms are simply open-pollinated varieties that have developed outside of the commercial plant trade and have a historical or cultural significance (a “backstory”). However, not all open-pollinated seeds are heirlooms. There is no hard and fast definition of “heirloom” as some also consider age a determining factor in the “heirloom” designation. The common age is usually 50 years. The seeds have been passed from generation-to-generation and often have a local or even familial significance. Several smaller seed companies have found a niche in the market by exclusively selling heirloom seeds, and even large commercial seed companies are following suit.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://urbanext.illinois.edu/hortihints/0102a.html

Open-pollinated, also known as heirloom or standard, plants are varieties that have stable traits from one generation to the next. Open pollinated plants are fairly similar to each other but not as uniform as hybrids. Because most were originally chosen for only one or two specific characteristics, individual plants of older heirloom varieties may differ greatly in size, shape, or other traits.
Open pollinated varieties are usually grown in fields where they self and cross-pollinate. Wind and insects carry the pollen from one plant to another. Plants that cross-pollinate must be isolated from other plants of different varieties so they will produce seed that is "true to type." Beans, lettuce, peas, and tomatoes are self-pollinating so they are easier to continue year to year without having to isolate them from other varieties of plants.
Genetic "drift" can occur over a period of time. Plants that deviate too far from the accepted standard are removed from commercial nursery fields of open pollinated varieties. Likewise, home gardeners should destroy highly unusual plants if you are trying to preserve an open pollinated variety. Removal of these rogue plants prevents them from pollinating other plants and producing too much variation.
The advantage of open pollinated seeds is that the home gardener from year to year and generation to generation may continue heirloom plants by careful seed saving. Open pollinated plants provide a larger gene pool for future breeding. Well known open pollinated varieties include ‘Kentucky Wonder’ pole bean, ‘Scarlet Nantes’ carrot, ‘Black Beauty’ eggplant, ‘Black Seeded Simpson’ lettuce, ‘California Wonder’ pepper, and ‘Brandywine’ and ‘Roma’ tomatoes.

 

[CrazyTalk]

Chickengeorgeto - "Breeds True" doesn't mean "Is Genetically identical". Sexual reproduction NEVER results in offspring that are identical to the parent, and you're always going to get some genetic drift.


If you're going to require something to be genetically identical to it's parent to be an heirloom, only things like Oranges where they're able to produce nucellar (clone) seedlings, or plants that are propagated by via cuttings are going to qualify (and even then there are spontaneous bud mutations, etc). Everything would have to be genetically tested.


That means basically no garden vegetables.

 

[The Yakima Kid]

Yes, hybrids and GMOs are not the same thing, and I buy King Freedom feed, made in King City, which is GMO free - but not rated as "organic."

We used to feed Purina, which I also like. Our reason for moving to King from Purina was to avoid as many Chinese ingredients as possible. We avoid Nutrena for the same reason.

 

[willyschicken]

Im not from California but I have heard that in Indiana there is a mill in Topeka, In. that is producing NON GMO feeds. From what I hear they are in the process of being NON GMO project verified...I think it is called Honeyville feed mill. I am going to check into it more.