Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[CeeJ]

Ther

...

Hi and thanks in advance for any help you can give. I am not sure what's happening in my flock - wry neck? marecks? Something else? I purchased 18 hatching eggs and added one of my own. I had 13 hatch. 2 of the chicks from the eggs I purchased died in the first 3 days having symptoms similar to wry neck. The chick from my eggs developed the symptoms, but somehow survived. They had tremors ... And their necks started twisting sideways and backwards. The two that died could not eat or drink. They also very rapidly lost use of the legs looking almost paralyzed on one side. It progressed rapidly. I braced myself for the worst, but everyone else survived. About 2 weeks ago The chick from my eggs started with what I thought was rye neck symptoms again, but then I realized he was only turning his head to see. I believe he is blind in one eye but healthy, growing at equal if not faster rate than the others. Now the newest problem. My 2 year old hen that hatched my own egg, is now acting as if she may be going blind as well. She is totally unrelated to all the others. The chick with the eye problem is now 10 weeks old. What is going on? It's been 10 weeks and just now the older hen is developing this problem. I've been searching for any disease/sickness but nothing seems to match quite right. Any guesses or suggestions are appreciated. I've been giving them vitamin supplements about 3-4 times a week. They've been wormed, treated for cocci, and given a 7 day course of duramycin. No improvement in either. All the other chicks and 2 other broody hens are great showing no problems. I have no idea what to try next. There are no avian vets within 2 hours of here ... Possibly further but I gave up and stopped looking as the expense coupled with the travel and time off work to get there is not doable. Any help is greatly appreciated. Could this be mareks? And does that mean that my 38 other birds are immune as they've all shared housing/grass, etc. my chickens range in age from 8 weeks to almost 3 years old. Should I pull out my two with eye trouble? I'm thinking they've all already been exposed. So overwhelmed by all I've read about Mareks. I feel like the worlds worst chicken mommy. Also sorry if I've posted this wrong.

First off, was this a new incubator? If not, how was it cleaned from the last hatch, stored and cleaned before this one? For the chicks in the 'bator, I think we can rule out a feed issue unless you and the person you bought the eggs from are feeding the exact same kind, batch, etc.. This sounds enviromental to me. Since Marek's doesn't come through the eggs, it would have had to be introduced and then time to go by for it to build up enough to show signs of being there. I'd really like to see a firm time frame here in order to help you. When symptoms started, what they were, where were these chicks kept? Your older birds...how do the eyes look? What are all of the symptoms from them? And again, a time frame please. Pictures would really be great if you can do them. I can't see from here, lol.
[/quote There was no incubator. The eggs were hatched by 3 different broody hens. The chicks that got the tremors, and paralysis died in their first 3 days of life. The one chick, now 10 months old had tremors and paralysis but recovered. He seemed fine, but about 1 month later it appeared with rye neck look again. Then I thought, no, it actually appears he is trying to see and only contorts his head when clearly trying to look around. His eyes are not cloudy and have no gray. There is no sign of injury or any swling or discharge. He cannot judge depth or distance well. The older hen was the one who sat and hatched this chick. I say that not really thinking it has anything to do with it. All mamas and babies were in the same coop together. The older hen just developed this apparent eye problem about a week ago.she does know if I'm coming, but only once I'm pretty darn close. They both look normal, but I will take pics and post if you thing that would help.

 

[CeeJ]

This is the 12 week old chick. Of course, he held his head perfectly the whole time I was taking pics. You can see his eye is clear and looks normal. His other eye is the same. on day 2 of his life he develop tremors (shaking all over). On day 3 he seemed paralyzed on one side and his head was twisted upwards and backwars. He couldn't eat or drink on his own. I thought he was a goner. I had called the breeder I had gotten the eggs from and she said she had that prob and gave chicks 2T of Duramycin in 1/2 gallon of water and they got better. So I mixed it up, gave it to all for 7 days. The lame chick I gave it by drooper full every hour throughout the night. I fell asleep at 5am and when I rushed out to check at 8, the lame chick was walking! He was fine until just a couple weeks ago, it looked like his twisted head thing was coming back. But then I realized it was different than before. This was a vision thing. Can MAreks cause this? He gets around great and I let him free range with the others when I am present. He even catches the occasional bug. But this morning he was in the dusting bath area, which is a circle made out of cut stumps arranged in a circle and filled with sand, and it too him almost an hour to figure out how to get out. He would walk right up to a stump and look up, but also tried to keep walking. Maybe he meed glasses for his up close vision, lol.

 

[CeeJ]

This is the almost 3 year old hen who has just recently had the same eye problem as the chick she hatched. Her eyes look normal. She has no outwards signs other than standing still a lot. She serms to be moving a bit more as she is adjusting to not seeing well. She will not go out of the coop. I think maybe occular mareks only because of the paralysis of some of the chicks that hatched (though different hens sat on 2 of the one's that died).
It could also be totally unrelated. I've no clue. Thoughts?

 

[CeeJ]

10

...

Ther

...

Hi and thanks in advance for any help you can give. I am not sure what's happening in my flock - wry neck? marecks? Something else? I purchased 18 hatching eggs and added one of my own. I had 13 hatch. 2 of the chicks from the eggs I purchased died in the first 3 days having symptoms similar to wry neck. The chick from my eggs developed the symptoms, but somehow survived. They had tremors ... And their necks started twisting sideways and backwards. The two that died could not eat or drink. They also very rapidly lost use of the legs looking almost paralyzed on one side. It progressed rapidly. I braced myself for the worst, but everyone else survived. About 2 weeks ago The chick from my eggs started with what I thought was rye neck symptoms again, but then I realized he was only turning his head to see. I believe he is blind in one eye but healthy, growing at equal if not faster rate than the others. Now the newest problem. My 2 year old hen that hatched my own egg, is now acting as if she may be going blind as well. She is totally unrelated to all the others. The chick with the eye problem is now 10 weeks old. What is going on? It's been 10 weeks and just now the older hen is developing this problem. I've been searching for any disease/sickness but nothing seems to match quite right. Any guesses or suggestions are appreciated. I've been giving them vitamin supplements about 3-4 times a week. They've been wormed, treated for cocci, and given a 7 day course of duramycin. No improvement in either. All the other chicks and 2 other broody hens are great showing no problems. I have no idea what to try next. There are no avian vets within 2 hours of here ... Possibly further but I gave up and stopped looking as the expense coupled with the travel and time off work to get there is not doable. Any help is greatly appreciated. Could this be mareks? And does that mean that my 38 other birds are immune as they've all shared housing/grass, etc. my chickens range in age from 8 weeks to almost 3 years old. Should I pull out my two with eye trouble? I'm thinking they've all already been exposed. So overwhelmed by all I've read about Mareks. I feel like the worlds worst chicken mommy. Also sorry if I've posted this wrong.

First off, was this a new incubator? If not, how was it cleaned from the last hatch, stored and cleaned before this one? For the chicks in the 'bator, I think we can rule out a feed issue unless you and the person you bought the eggs from are feeding the exact same kind, batch, etc.. This sounds enviromental to me. Since Marek's doesn't come through the eggs, it would have had to be introduced and then time to go by for it to build up enough to show signs of being there. I'd really like to see a firm time frame here in order to help you. When symptoms started, what they were, where were these chicks kept? Your older birds...how do the eyes look? What are all of the symptoms from them? And again, a time frame please. Pictures would really be great if you can do them. I can't see from here, lol.
[/quote There was no incubator. The eggs were hatched by 3 different broody hens. The chicks that got the tremors, and paralysis died in their first 3 days of life. The one chick, now 10 months old had tremors and paralysis but recovered. He seemed fine, but about 1 month later it appeared with rye neck look again. Then I thought, no, it actually appears he is trying to see and only contorts his head when clearly trying to look around. His eyes are not cloudy and have no gray. There is no sign of injury or any swling or discharge. He cannot judge depth or distance well. The older hen was the one who sat and hatched this chick. I say that not really thinking it has anything to do with it. All mamas and babies were in the same coop together. The older hen just developed this apparent eye problem about a week ago.she does know if I'm coming, but only once I'm pretty darn close. They both look normal, but I will take pics and post if you thing that would help.[/quo Sorry, 10 weeks, not months

 

[CeeJ]

This is

Some of the symptoms reminded me of something and I just went and checked.

[COLOR=0038EC][COLOR=0038EC][COLOR=0038EC]Newcastle Disease[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR]
Synonyms: pneumoencephalitis
The highly contagious and lethal form of Newcastle disease is known as viscerotropic (attacks
the internal organs) velogenic Newcastle disease, VVND, exotic Newcastle disease,
or Asiatic Newcastle disease. VVND is not present in the United States poultry industry at
this time.
Species affected: Newcastle disease affects all birds of all ages. Humans and other mammals are also
susceptible to Newcastle. In such species, it causes a mild conjunctivitis.
Clinical signs: There are three forms of Newcastle disease -- mildly pathogenic (lentogenic), moderately
pathogenic (mesogenic) and highly pathogenic (velogenic). Newcastle disease is characterized
by a sudden onset of clinical signs which include hoarse chirps (in chicks), watery
discharge from nostrils, labored breathing (gasping), facial swelling, paralysis, trembling,
and twisting of the neck (sign of central nervous system involvement). Mortality ranges
from 10 to 80 percent depending on the pathogenicity. In adult laying birds, symptoms
can include decreased feed and water consumption and a dramatic drop in egg production
(see Table 1).
Transmission: The Newcastle virus can be transmitted short distances by the airborne route or
introduced on contaminated shoes, caretakers, feed deliverers, visitors, tires, dirty equipment,
feed sacks, crates, and wild birds. Newcastle virus can be passed in the egg, but
Newcastle-infected embryos die before hatching. In live birds, the virus is shed in body
fluids, secretions, excreta, and breath.
Treatment: There is no specific treatment for Newcastle disease. Antibiotics can be given for 3-5 days
to prevent secondary bacterial infections (particularly E. coli ). For chicks, increasing the
brooding temperature 5°F may help reduce losses.

Now there isn't supposed to be any Exotic Newcastle in the US at present time.  But Newcastle comes in many flavors and the link below has some information on where and how it can present.
http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/newcastle_disease.pdf

The symptoms fit, but again, without a clear understanding of time and symptoms, it's awful hard to come up with something that makes sense.

Very interesting and possible. But I have seen no evidence of nasal discharge, hoarse chirps or and swelling. All mynolder girls lay like crazy, lol, and I'm sure they would show some affect. I'm just trying to put all the seemingly unrelated pieces together as in the chicken world it appears everything is related,

 

[Haunted55]

This is the 12 week old chick. Of course, he held his head perfectly the whole time I was taking pics. You can see his eye is clear and looks normal. His other eye is the same. on day 2 of his life he develop tremors (shaking all over). On day 3 he seemed paralyzed on one side and his head was twisted upwards and backwars. He couldn't eat or drink on his own. I thought he was a goner. I had called the breeder I had gotten the eggs from and she said she had that prob and gave chicks 2T of Duramycin in 1/2 gallon of water and they got better. So I mixed it up, gave it to all for 7 days. The lame chick I gave it by drooper full every hour throughout the night. I fell asleep at 5am and when I rushed out to check at 8, the lame chick was walking! He was fine until just a couple weeks ago, it looked like his twisted head thing was coming back. But then I realized it was different than before. This was a vision thing. Can MAreks cause this? He gets around great and I let him free range with the others when I am present. He even catches the occasional bug. But this morning he was in the dusting bath area, which is a circle made out of cut stumps arranged in a circle and filled with sand, and it too him almost an hour to figure out how to get out. He would walk right up to a stump and look up, but also tried to keep walking. Maybe he meed glasses for his up close vision, lol.

Are you saying 2 tbls? If you are saying 2 tbls. of Duramycin-10 to a half gallon of water, you are lucky any of them made it. 1 tbls. is 800mgs in a gallon of water and you tripled that. A word to the wise, if a breeder tells you to give a dosing like that or any dosing of an antibiotic because they also had the same problem? Run! The birds are diseased and will probably infect your whole flock.

At 2 days of age? No, it's not Marek's but it's some kind of a disease you got from the breeder from the sounds of it. Please, if you can do this for giggles, I'd like you to get a bottle of human Super B Complex, it needs to be the Super B Complex, take a whole pill, crush it up and add it to a 1 gallon waterer. Let them all have it. In the meantime, I am going to be searching for whatever this could be. Is it possible you have Marek's there? Sure, but you have something more serious going on unless I miss my guess and in my opinion, it starts with the breeder.

 

[Haunted55]

This is
Very interesting and possible. But I have seen no evidence of nasal discharge, hoarse chirps or and swelling. All mynolder girls lay like crazy, lol, and I'm sure they would show some affect. I'm just trying to put all the seemingly unrelated pieces together as in the chicken world it appears everything is related,

That's why I asked you for a detailed history. Do i think it's Newcastle? No I do not, but it sure seems to be coming up to one of the diseases or more. We need everything you can think of, even if you don't think it's a symptom. I'd rather read through 16 paragraphs then miss something important.

 

[Haunted55]

This is the 12 week old chick. Of course, he held his head perfectly the whole time I was taking pics. You can see his eye is clear and looks normal. His other eye is the same. on day 2 of his life he develop tremors (shaking all over). On day 3 he seemed paralyzed on one side and his head was twisted upwards and backwars. He couldn't eat or drink on his own. I thought he was a goner. I had called the breeder I had gotten the eggs from and she said she had that prob and gave chicks 2T of Duramycin in 1/2 gallon of water and they got better. So I mixed it up, gave it to all for 7 days. The lame chick I gave it by drooper full every hour throughout the night. I fell asleep at 5am and when I rushed out to check at 8, the lame chick was walking! He was fine until just a couple weeks ago, it looked like his twisted head thing was coming back. But then I realized it was different than before. This was a vision thing. Can MAreks cause this? He gets around great and I let him free range with the others when I am present. He even catches the occasional bug. But this morning he was in the dusting bath area, which is a circle made out of cut stumps arranged in a circle and filled with sand, and it too him almost an hour to figure out how to get out. He would walk right up to a stump and look up, but also tried to keep walking. Maybe he meed glasses for his up close vision, lol.

This eye doesn't look like occular Marek's at all. Your chick survived, what are it's symptoms now? Let me ask another thing, it looks like hay or straw for bedding, did you check this for mold before putting it in? There are fungals that chickens can pick up from hay or straw with mold in it. It wouldn't be the complete answer, but a start.

 

[CeeJ]

Wow

Are you saying 2 tbls?  If you are saying 2 tbls. of Duramycin-10 to a half gallon of water, you are lucky any of them made it. 1 tbls. is 800mgs in a gallon of water and you tripled that. A word to the wise, if a breeder tells you to give a dosing like that or any dosing of an antibiotic because they also had the same problem?  Run!  The birds are diseased and will probably infect your whole flock.

 At 2 days of age?  No, it's not Marek's but it's some kind of a disease you got from the breeder from the sounds of it.  Please, if you can do this for giggles, I'd like you to get a bottle of human Super B Complex, it needs to be the Super B Complex, take a whole pill, crush it up and add it to a 1 gallon waterer.  Let them all have it.  In the meantime, I am going to be searching for whatever this could be.  Is it possible you have Marek's there?  Sure, but you have something more serious going on unless I miss my guess and in my opinion, it starts with the breeder.

, thanks so much for all your help. Yes, it was 2 Tablespoons. I thought it was a high dose, but that bird was gonna die that night, so I figured I give him a chance. When he did so well, I gave it to the others. I immediately said Oh #%^* when the breeder told me that, but by then I already had the hatched chicks. She is out of business. Actually had the audacity to call me and see if I'd purchase her stock and incubator. She won't ask me again!

I have the same bad feeling. This isn't mare ks, but it is something.

Okay, here's what I''ve been working on.

Got started into chickens 3 years ago. My hubby bought a box of cocks from a swap. They were game birds. My introduction to poultry wasn't pretty. The 3 week old chicks were 7 males, 1 female. 3 died similar to what I've discussed. Paralyzed, couldn't walk, but no tremors. My husband put 2 down that were lingering and suffering. 1 died quickly on it's own. 4 roos we gave to a friend who had no other birds. He grew them and ate them. That left 2, one roo and 1 pullet. The roo was the best ever and and was healthy right up to the day he fought with a hawk. The hawk died too. The last remaining hen lived 2 years happily and healthy. She got very lethargic and stopped eating. Then we wanted new birds. I cloroxed everything about 6 times letting it dry and air out. That was all feed containers, etc. then we built a new coop. We bought 3 Barred Rocks, 1 bantam unknown (the hen in question) and a bantam polish from a chicken swap. one Rock got attacked by a fox. 1 died similarly to the last game bird. i took her 2 1/2 hours away to the State Drpt of Ag lab where they performed a necropsy. the cause was Cocci, followed by worms. i treated everyone for cocci, and switched to Ivermectin for worming (actually I do Wazine, then 15 days later Ivermectin - Spring and Fall) and all was quiet again. We bought baby chicks and had them immunized for MReks and something else I can't remember at this moment. They were from McMurray. We have not had one problem and they were hatched in mid Feb. Feeling better about chickens, my friend got me 6 red sex links in March as a gift from Tractor supply. I do not know if they were vaccinated, but so far they are all healthy. Both the hatchery chicks and the Tractor supply chicks are laying machines now.

Then I messed up again. I had 3 hens go broody but my roo's were just coming of age. Of the 6 eggs I gave 1 hen, only 1 was fertile and that is the now 10 week old chick we're discussing. The other 12 that hatched were the purchased eggs. 2 of those died, and the other 10 appear healthy. I check them daily for possibly vision priblems, etc. the two other broody hens are now back with the rest of the flock and laying and apparently healthy.

The orange hen, Pumpkin is not yet laying and is the one with some kind of eye trouble. She did get up on the roost tonight, but it took her about 10 minutes to do so. She only had to jump up 14" which is normally not even a thiught as she is small and the most agile and flighty bird we have. But she couldn't judge it. She flapped and stumbled a little but made it up that and the second step when is only 9". Little Tito. The 10 week old, will not sleep on the roost, rather the floor. However, he can manage the same size jumps in ghe outside run. We use cut stumps rather than ramps as the ramps were too steep for all of them based on our space allowances.

So, that's what I know. I thought tge first batch was mareks except for the early age of onset. Then those symptoms didn't appear again until these last chicks. The tremors were significant.

I thought possibly enchepilitus (spelling ?) but that doesn't cover the lameness.

I really, really really appreciate your help. I called several vets today and none can do anything unless I want to sacrifice a bird to have tge necropsy performed. My hesitation? I am not convinced both birds have the same problem, though similar. Then I would have killed it for an incomplete answer. I soooo do not want to sacrifice both.

The state dept of ag guy suggested the older hen could simply have an infection, even without visible signs of leakage. So give an antibiotic? But which one? She already had that super dose of Duramycin and I reallly don't think more is wise. Another antibiotic? Maybe, but there is no way to know which one and no vet here will see a live bird. The one avian vet 1 hour from me really only treats exotic birds. He's helpful on the phone, but doesn't want me to bring her in. Go figure.

Hope this info helps you more than it has helped me. And you are a super awesome person for trying. Thank you!

 

[seminolewind]

Thh
Quote:

Your dept of ag vet is right, but the ones over a year old are becoming more common than they used to be.
I think it sounds like Marek's. Some of mine have also seem to peck at the food but not pick it up. It does seem like there's no depth perception.

You may want to try brooding your own eggs. The hens may pass on some resistance.

Oh yea. 10 chicks brooded and died one by one from 6 weeks and on when I realized I had Marek's here. Prior to that I had hatches with purchased eggs, and no one died. I figured the living chicks were probably from Marek's exposed hens.