Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[Haunted55]

I always forget the Oxine....very good advice! Something else you should think about. If you choose not to cull your existing flock, if you need to introduce more birds I would get them from a hatchery that will do these vaccinations for you. The birds would still need to be housed seperately for months so that the immunities can develope. You could also buy the vaccines yourself and do them at home. The Poulvac [coryza vaccine] is given to chicks at 8 weeks of age and then again in 3-4 weeks. MG Bac [crd] is given at one - ten weeks of age, then again in 4 weeks. Neither is cheap, I buy mine from Jeffers, and you would still need to provide a seperate place for the new birds to be, like a new building away from the one you currently use for your birds. This is why so many tell you to cull and start over. The logistics of keeping sick birds are over the top and no matter how well you think you're doing, you will always have more deaths. I know how you feel.....it's like admitting defeat to just stop, cull and start again. Sometimes though it may be the smartest thing to do in the end. I don't know, I'm not there myself yet. Wait for the necropsy report and see if it helps.

 

[Overoberyl]

One thought on the Marek's vax...it doesn't prevent infection, just prevents the tumors from forming. If you are planning to keep your birds and understand that all will be exposed it might make sense for you, but if you want to know who is affected and you are planning to move forward and breed for immunity, you may not want to vaccinate. Imo all the vaccine does is make it harder to identify if you were to do a necropsy. To qualify my opinion, this is just based on what I have read, not personal experience so for what it's worth...

 

[Haunted55]

One thought on the Marek's vax...it doesn't prevent infection, just prevents the tumors from forming. If you are planning to keep your birds and understand that all will be exposed it might make sense for you, but if you want to know who is affected and you are planning to move forward and breed for immunity, you may not want to vaccinate. Imo all the vaccine does is make it harder to identify if you were to do a necropsy. To qualify my opinion, this is just based on what I have read, not personal experience so for what it's worth...

No you are exactly right and this is experience talking. A necropsy I had done last summer came up negative for Marek's even though the bird was showing all of the symptoms. She's been vaccinated but evidently the Marek's here wasn't stopped by the vaccine. Another done on a bird in the fall came back positive and this bird showed no symptoms and had not been vaccinated.

 

[Dahlisgrams]

No you are exactly right and this is experience talking. A necropsy I had done last summer came up negative for Marek's even though the bird was showing all of the symptoms. She's been vaccinated but evidently the Marek's here wasn't stopped by the vaccine. Another done on a bird in the fall came back positive and this bird showed no symptoms and had not been vaccinated.

I've heard of this exact thing happening with Mareks vaccinated birds and necropsies. I have never vaccinated for Mareks because it only masks the tumors and would personally prefer knowing who the symptomatic birds are without a doubt so they can be culled and then breed the resistant birds. The hope is that resistant birds will produce resistant chicks. I suggest educating yourself as much as possible. In this case, knowledge is power. Good luck with your flock!

 

[Haunted55]

I've heard of this exact thing happening with Mareks vaccinated birds and necropsies. I have never vaccinated for Mareks because it only masks the tumors and would personally prefer knowing who the symptomatic birds are without a doubt so they can be culled and then breed the resistant birds. The hope is that resistant birds will produce resistant chicks. I suggest educating yourself as much as possible. In this case, knowledge is power. Good luck with your flock!

Thank-you. Resistant birds do produce resistant chicks. I have eight out of nine birds who have hit the magic number of 10 weeks and beyond and are healthy, gaining weight and growing strong. The one from this group who died had paralysis of one leg and even though he made a valiant effort to get over it, just didn't make it. One loss to Marek's so far in this group I'd say is excellent odds. This is why I started this thread. I am on the fence about continuing with hatching more from these birds and just using them up, or if I should let them go. My heart tells me one thing but my head tells me another. Sounds silly, I know. These birds are the hope of my flock and it's future.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Thank-you. Resistant birds do produce resistant chicks. I have eight out of nine birds who have hit the magic number of 10 weeks and beyond and are healthy, gaining weight and growing strong. The one from this group who died had paralysis of one leg and even though he made a valiant effort to get over it, just didn't make it. One loss to Marek's so far in this group I'd say is excellent odds. This is why I started this thread. I am on the fence about continuing with hatching more from these birds and just using them up, or if I should let them go. My heart tells me one thing but my head tells me another. Sounds silly, I know. These birds are the hope of my flock and it's future.

You 'n I have kicked this around a bit, and I do understand why you'd be on the fence about the whole issue ... it's easy enough for folks to suggest goin' through this disease, 'til they actually have: It's no fun. At all.

But, neither is the thought of startin' over from scratch; the 'undoing' of all you've done so far.

But, most folks don't realize that it's so ridiculously common in poultry that it really can't be avoided by even the most careful measures of biosecurity ... sorta like humans hopin' to avoid the flu, except that (at least so far) we're not likely to be infected by wild birds.

My birds are not inoculated, which I sorta regret. But, until this newest vaccine has been licensed, and is available? Nothing I buy will be, either. However, keepin' those that seem to just be limpin' along is problematic in so many ways: Those showing significant symptoms should be culled, whether you're hopin' to develop resistance w/in your flock, or not.

Speaking of which? Here's a [broken link; see below] focused google search, for that. You also might wanna google Visceral Leukosis, which is the disease that Marek's actually is.

Marek's has multiple forms (some say four, but there's six herpes viruses responsible), and all infected birds are carriers for life. It's one of the most common lymphoproliferative diseases, but there are others that you'd have to differentiate their symptoms from ... easier said than done.

So is breeding for resistance, 'cause you may have only one strain, or even several, or even none at all, and what happens when the next arrives? Short of intentionally infecting all birds w/ all known threats, there's little hope of actually developing the 'super flock' I'd once imagined I could. But, 'til then? There's always replacements, and they're still cheaper than one dozen of even lousy eggs.

But, for those hopin' to try their hand at it, or just to definitively know 'yes/no' w/o necropsy? They can test frozen/shipped feathers by real time PCR. While googling it, I found yet another remarkably qualified lady at NCSU's College of Veterinary Medicine, Dr. Isabel M. Gimeno. and this page about her serves well to explain exactly what the MDV is.

SoOo ... it actually turns out that those wild birds flyin' about are nearly as big of a threat to our flocks as the raptors are (but I guess I'll keep on feedin' them, too ~'-)

:: edit to correct broken link:
Go to http://www.google.com, and copy/paste the following:
"marek's+disease"+poultry+breeding+resistance+site:.edu

 

[Haunted55]

You 'n I have kicked this around a bit, and I do understand why you'd be on the fence about the whole issue ... it's easy enough for folks to suggest goin' through this disease, 'til they actually have: It's no fun. At all.

But, neither is the thought of startin' over from scratch; the 'undoing' of all you've done so far.

But, most folks don't realize that it's so ridiculously common in poultry that it really can't be avoided by even the most careful measures of biosecurity ... sorta like humans hopin' to avoid the flu, except that (at least so far) we're not likely to be infected by wild birds.

My birds are not inoculated, which I sorta regret. But, until this newest vaccine has been licensed, and is available? Nothing I buy will be, either. However, keepin' those that seem to just be limpin' along is problematic in so many ways: Those showing significant symptoms should be culled, whether you're hopin' to develop resistance w/in your flock, or not.

Speaking of which? Here's a [broken link; see below] focused google search, for that. You also might wanna google Visceral Leukosis, which is the disease that Marek's actually is.

Marek's has multiple forms (some say four, but there's six herpes viruses responsible), and all infected birds are carriers for life. It's one of the most common lymphoproliferative diseases, but there are others that you'd have to differentiate their symptoms from ... easier said than done.

So is breeding for resistance, 'cause you may have only one strain, or even several, or even none at all, and what happens when the next arrives? Short of intentionally infecting all birds w/ all known threats, there's little hope of actually developing the 'super flock' I'd once imagined I could. But, 'til then? There's always replacements, and they're still cheaper than one dozen of even lousy eggs.

But, for those hopin' to try their hand at it, or just to definitively know 'yes/no' w/o necropsy? They can test frozen/shipped feathers by real time PCR. While googling it, I found yet another remarkably qualified lady at NCSU's College of Veterinary Medicine, Dr. Isabel M. Gimeno. and this page about her serves well to explain exactly what the MDV is.

SoOo ... it actually turns out that those wild birds flyin' about are nearly as big of a threat to our flocks as the raptors are (but I guess I'll keep on feedin' them, too ~'-)

:: edit to correct broken link:
Go to http://www.google.com, and copy/paste the following:
"marek's+disease"+poultry+breeding+resistance+site:.edu

As usual, Cowcreek, you hit it dead on. You're right we have kicked this around a few times but like you said....it doesn't get any easier. Ever since this happened I have taken to second guessing myself with everything. I think I will follow the advice of letting them be if they're healthy enough.

New birds are something I am considering as well. Yeah, I know, stupid right? These will not see the inside of the chicken house for 6 months. We are currently building brooder boxes over nesting boxes in the turkey/pea house as well as the duck/goose house. No where near the size of the ones FBC has put into his Pea Palace, but will do the job for me. Chicks will go into the brooder in the turkey pen. I've not had blackhead here, yet, so I don't think that's an issue. I will do the McMurray chicks as they do the 3 different vaccines for the Marek's after a certain time in the chick season. I am seriously considering the cocci vaccination as well. Have to read a little more on that one. No it's not fool proof, like you said, so far nothing is. They can't even stop herpes in humans and we want them to stop it in the birds, lol. I don't have the answers. I know what I know and that upgrades daily. I have learned these first hand....stress will take these birds out faster than anything. As in a matter of hours. Be it from temperature, fighting in the hen house, or a rooster who picks one of these girls as the "flavor" of the day. They need quiet, warmth [reasonable], and to be left alone. They do thrive, as much as they can, and even gain weight, with these conditions. They can and do accept a gentle rooster and lay fertile eggs for hatching.

Thanks Cowcreekgeek and everyone else as well. I guess the magic answer I've been searching for just isn't there and each bird will have to continue to be evaluated daily. I've had a few sleepless nights with this and for the now, I just can't bring myself to just wipe everyone out. We are talking 52 birds with some never showing symptoms, but being exposed and ranging from almost 2 years down to 4 months.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

As usual, Cowcreek, you hit it dead on. You're right we have kicked this around a few times but like you said....it doesn't get any easier. Ever since this happened I have taken to second guessing myself with everything. I think I will follow the advice of letting them be if they're healthy enough.

New birds are something I am considering as well. Yeah, I know, stupid right? These will not see the inside of the chicken house for 6 months. We are currently building brooder boxes over nesting boxes in the turkey/pea house as well as the duck/goose house. No where near the size of the ones FBC has put into his Pea Palace, but will do the job for me. Chicks will go into the brooder in the turkey pen. I've not had blackhead here, yet, so I don't think that's an issue. I will do the McMurray chicks as they do the 3 different vaccines for the Marek's after a certain time in the chick season. I am seriously considering the cocci vaccination as well. Have to read a little more on that one. No it's not fool proof, like you said, so far nothing is. They can't even stop herpes in humans and we want them to stop it in the birds, lol. I don't have the answers. I know what I know and that upgrades daily. I have learned these first hand....stress will take these birds out faster than anything. As in a matter of hours. Be it from temperature, fighting in the hen house, or a rooster who picks one of these girls as the "flavor" of the day. They need quiet, warmth [reasonable], and to be left alone. They do thrive, as much as they can, and even gain weight, with these conditions. They can and do accept a gentle rooster and lay fertile eggs for hatching.

Thanks Cowcreekgeek and everyone else as well. I guess the magic answer I've been searching for just isn't there and each bird will have to continue to be evaluated daily. I've had a few sleepless nights with this and for the now, I just can't bring myself to just wipe everyone out. We are talking 52 birds with some never showing symptoms, but being exposed and ranging from almost 2 years down to 4 months.

You're still lookin' at this in the 'all in, all out' way ... yes, when flock-wide contaminations first occur? It's a good plan. But, in regard to this ... it's just a matter of eliminating the most severely impacted birds, as you're never gonna be fully free of the virus -- it's in the wild.

Again, let's consider the math ... you wash off your car, that has x number of droppings. Multiply that by the number of times you've washed each year, 'n then by how many of your vehicles that could fit w/in the areas your birds have access to ... with Marek's? One feather does the trick.

I'd certainly cull the worst, so as to prevent them from hosting additional diseases or secondary infections that would then affect the rest of the flock, even if not for considering that they're not the ones you should breed. McMurray's a good choice, esp. since they only charge a nickel per bird for the inoculations, and they run some great bargains.

Second-guessing is normal, but useless, and pointless, and unproductive. You had a plan, before Marek's came along. That's no reason to give up, but it's certainly good cause to make a new plan, and adjust the manner in which you manage your operation. Maybe focus on the cheaper broilers/layers for now, 'til this runs it's course ... those affected/infected won't live forever, and you'll continue to gain experience/knowledge/etc. between now, and that time when it's no longer any concern. Then, you can move towards the fancier/expensive breeds, when losses will be minimal, and your reputation is well established, and your kids are all grown ...

 

[Dahlisgrams]

Quote: I suggest keep hatching eggs from your birds and try to build a resistant flock. Feed them well to keep their immune systems strong and healthy. My understanding is that Marek's doesn't work with an all in/all out mode of operation and it would not be productive to cull everyone. I agree with culling the worst though. Don't give up your plan. Just do the best you can with what you have and readjust as you go along, understanding that you might lose some but not all. Try to be flexible and enjoy them as much as you can. I'm so sorry you're going through this.

 

[Haunted55]

You're still lookin' at this in the 'all in, all out' way ... yes, when flock-wide contaminations first occur? It's a good plan. But, in regard to this ... it's just a matter of eliminating the most severely impacted birds, as you're never gonna be fully free of the virus -- it's in the wild.

Again, let's consider the math ... you wash off your car, that has x number of droppings. Multiply that by the number of times you've washed each year, 'n then by how many of your vehicles that could fit w/in the areas your birds have access to ... with Marek's? One feather does the trick.

I'd certainly cull the worst, so as to prevent them from hosting additional diseases or secondary infections that would then affect the rest of the flock, even if not for considering that they're not the ones you should breed. McMurray's a good choice, esp. since they only charge a nickel per bird for the inoculations, and they run some great bargains.

Second-guessing is normal, but useless, and pointless, and unproductive. You had a plan, before Marek's came along. That's no reason to give up, but it's certainly good cause to make a new plan, and adjust the manner in which you manage your operation. Maybe focus on the cheaper broilers/layers for now, 'til this runs it's course ... those affected/infected won't live forever, and you'll continue to gain experience/knowledge/etc. between now, and that time when it's no longer any concern. Then, you can move towards the fancier/expensive breeds, when losses will be minimal, and your reputation is well established, and your kids are all grown ...

I suggest keep hatching eggs from your birds and try to build a resistant flock. Feed them well to keep their immune systems strong and healthy. My understanding is that Marek's doesn't work with an all in/all out mode of operation and it would not be productive to cull everyone. I agree with culling the worst though. Don't give up your plan. Just do the best you can with what you have and readjust as you go along, understanding that you might lose some but not all. Try to be flexible and enjoy them as much as you can. I'm so sorry you're going through this.

Thank-you for this. The 8 birds that are in the 'control' group, hatched from marek's survivors, are doing great. Well, now that the roosters are in a cage seperated from the hens they are. As soon as the girls are old enough to lay I will allow the roosters, in rotation, to be with these girls and hatch any eggs produced. I really do know everything isn't going to be sweetness and light. I hope it will be, but I do know better. Sometimes it's the pits to be the one who has to decide who lives and who goes on. You are always guessing and as I am close to the birds, always hard.

Again, thanks so very much, everyone, it's nice to know I'm not alone and that any others out there going through the same thing have such a wonderful support group to fall back on.