Orpington chicken genetics

[Phenomenalchooks]

Hi everyone!
Long time lurker, so thought it was about time that i actually joined and posted (I've actually posted this same question in another section so please forgive me, I'm new!)

Okay so I'm a bit of a hobby breeder and would like to try and create a Buff Columbian Orpington! From what I've read it's quite difficult but I can't actually find what colours you shoukd even start with??
Can anyone please help and shed some light on this for me?!
Cheers!

 

[The Moonshiner]

Cross buff with jubilee.
The buff has the buff and the jubilee can bring in the black needed for the columbian pattern.
You'd have to breed out the red and the mottleing.
It will take a few generations.

 

[Phenomenalchooks]

Okay so I currently own
Buffs, Partridge and gold laced. So none of these will do?
I'm after a true Buff Columbian rather than the lighter Blue/Buff.

We you say I would need to breed out the red and the mottling, what do you mean exactly?? (Sorry it's all a bit confusing!)

 

[The Moonshiner]

Jubilee are red columbian with mottling.
For buff columbian you would need to get rid of the red and mottling.
You can do that by crossing with buff.
It will take a few generations to get rid of it though.

 

[Phenomenalchooks]

Jubilee are red columbian with mottling.
For buff columbian you would need to get rid of the red and mottling.
You can do that by crossing with buff.
It will take a few generations to get rid of it though.

Hi!
Thanks for your reply. Looks like I'm off to buy some jubilee hens then...!

So when you say breed out the red and the mottling, do you mean chose the best cock and best hen (with the least amount of red/mottling) from that F1 generation and breed them together, then breed another brother and sister together from the F2 generation and so on? Have I got the wrong end of the stick here? Is that not bad genetics to let a brother mate with a sister though??

 

[The Moonshiner]

The jubilee is what you want except it is red instead of buff and it has mottling. The buff is what you want except it doesn't have the black of the columbian pattern showing.
You're going to use genes from each to get what you want but that also means breeding out what you don't want.
Example the mottled gene. Genes are genes. They're either there or they're not.
Its not like you breed them out a little at a time like breeding each generation with less and less mottling. You can breed for something like less mottling by breeding for it but the birds still have the genes.
You want it gone completely. The jubilee has two mottled genes. When crossed with the buff all offspring will get one gene for mottling and then they'll get one gene for non mottled from the buff side.
You have to know the genes and how they work. Mottled is recessive so it needs two copies to show. One copy will be carried sight unseen. That's what your F1s will be.
Recessive can be tricky because it can be carried unseen. To truly get rid of it you will need to test breed to see if its there or not.
In that case you breed that bird to a bird that is mottled. If your bird carries the mottled gene then it will pass it to about half its offspring. The offspring will all get one gene from the mottled parent there for about half the chicks will be mottled so you know that one carries mottled.
If you breed it to a mottled bird and that produces no mottled chicks then you know it doesn't carry the mottled gene.
Make sense?
The red is a different story. I did a similar cross with leghorns. I'm assuming my buffs are red with the dilute gene diluting the red to buff. My cross produced offspring that are in between red and buff.
I'm assuming that's because they got red from both parents but only one dilute gene from the buff therefor diluting it but not all the way to buff. I need to get the second dilute gene to get back to buff. Or my buffs are buffs and reds are buffs with mahogany. Therefor my offspring are buff with one mahogany gene so it darkened them but not to the deep red color. I'll be figuring that out in the spring.
Red and buff can be weird. If you take a buff bird and add mahogany you get red. Then you can add the dilute gene and dilute the red back to buff.
That means buff can be buff with no mahogany or dilute gene. Or buff can be buff plus mahogany plus the dilute.
With your orps you'll have to figure what you have and what you need.
Do you need to breed out the mahogany genes or do you have the dilute gene so you'd need to keep the mahogany and the dilute gene and get doubled up with both to breed true buff.
The columbian pattern is also a bit tricky sometimes. My cross produced all offspring with black tails but no black in the hackles. They also have a bit of color in the tails.
My move now is to breed those blacked tailed together. In my theory that will double up some genes on some of the offspring and they will get full black tails. Then I'll go like you were thinking and continue with the blackest tails and hopefully some black in hackles. I'll continue on that path hoping to get to full nice columbian pattern.
That make any sense?
I'll post again later about the brother/sister mating.

 

[The Moonshiner]

Inbreeding, line breeding, sibling breeding etc etc is as good or bad as the birds involved and the breeders knowledge of them.
Its funny some think close breeding is the greatest thing in the world when working on a new breed or variety.
Others think its a guaranteed disaster. It can be one or the other or anywhere in between.
Its pretty much a given when creating something new that inbreeding has to be used to some extent and in some fashion to ever reach your goal.
Like your project you're wanting to make a new variety. You need to get genes from two different varieties to create a third variety.
You have to not only breed out the unwanted genes you have to breed in the needed genes then in most cases you have to get them all doubled so that way they have to pass forward the right genes to breed true for that variety over and over.
Now say you make your cross then breed those back to a buff. Lets say you get to everything you need but you're lacking enough black in most birds.
You brought the black columbian markings in from the jubilee. You can breed yours back to a jubilee which would surely help with your black. Unfortunately you'll also bring the mottling etc back in and have to start over breeding it out.
The better option would be breed two siblings together that had the genes you wanted and the most black. That would help lock in your black without messing up all your other genes/work.
Its the fastest way to lock in genes and move forward. It locks in what you want but can also lock in what you dont so you have to be aware.
Breeding projects is getting from point A to point B . there's usually many ways to get there so you have to make the best decisions for your project at every given point. Sometimes that means close breeding and other times it means out breeding.

 

[Phenomenalchooks]

Inbreeding, line breeding, sibling breeding etc etc is as good or bad as the birds involved and the breeders knowledge of them.
Its funny some think close breeding is the greatest thing in the world when working on a new breed or variety.
Others think its a guaranteed disaster. It can be one or the other or anywhere in between.
Its pretty much a given when creating something new that inbreeding has to be used to some extent and in some fashion to ever reach your goal.
Like your project you're wanting to make a new variety. You need to get genes from two different varieties to create a third variety.
You have to not only breed out the unwanted genes you have to breed in the needed genes then in most cases you have to get them all doubled so that way they have to pass forward the right genes to breed true for that variety over and over.
Now say you make your cross then breed those back to a buff. Lets say you get to everything you need but you're lacking enough black in most birds.
You brought the black columbian markings in from the jubilee. You can breed yours back to a jubilee which would surely help with your black. Unfortunately you'll also bring the mottling etc back in and have to start over breeding it out.
The better option would be breed two siblings together that had the genes you wanted and the most black. That would help lock in your black without messing up all your other genes/work.
Its the fastest way to lock in genes and move forward. It locks in what you want but can also lock in what you dont so you have to be aware.
Breeding projects is getting from point A to point B . there's usually many ways to get there so you have to make the best decisions for your project at every given point. Sometimes that means close breeding and other times it means out breeding.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a long and complex reply!
I think I understand what you're saying! I have a basic understanding of genetics for other species but chickens seem rather complex in comparison. I suppose you need to have knowledge of dominant and recessive genes in the first place before you even think of moving forward.
To add another extra in the mix. I have recently hatched 2 buff columbian chicks from a breeder. I have no idea whether they will be cocks or hens yet. Would you advise breeding these with a Buff or start off from scratch with the Buff/Jubilee combo that you originally suggested?
Many thanks once again!

 

[kellyloveschad]

I have this orpington it is twice the size as its young sister. Idk if the breed did something wrong but now she's having leg issues with standing.. I don't know if I wrap the joint it would help..