Pine and Cedar shavings are dangerous

[JacobMaxwell]

I realize I'm resurrecting an older thread here, but this whole cedar vs pine thing really gets to me, and the quoted question is just perfect. If cedar is harmful, it is impossible to believe that pine is safer than cedar. I'll reference a post I made previously here: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...s-build-a-coop-need-your-help/20#post_5919671

First, and most importantly, BOTH pine and cedar shavings contain acids that can irritate the respiratory system. If you are going by the actual research used in the stand against shavings, PINE is actually more harmful than cedar.

All the research papers quoted regarding humans and respiratory diseases from pine/cedar have been occupational exposure to the fine dust produced by timberworkers and sawmill workers.

In rats, studies have shown that wood shavings are not inert and can cause immune response and changes in liver functioning, and therefore changes in the absorption rates and activity of drugs introduced to the system. Pine being the least inert (meaning affects the systems to the greatest degree).

The studies examined (and used by anti-shavings people) are listed in the post linked above. To single out cedar shavings when the studies show that pine actually has the greater effect on an animal's system...

There is a well-researched and logical article I found recently that even explains what these liver changes in the lab studies actually mean: http://buckysbunnies.tripod.com/Pine.html

So the conclusions I came to in my own research are (1) Do what you believe is right in your experience/understanding and (2) If you believe cedar is 'toxic' then you cannot in good conscience say that pine is okay.

Yahoo! Finally somebody agrees with me. If my hens are perfectly healthy and lay well, any harm the shavings are causing is non consequential.

 

[Steeldeal]

Hello,

I'm new to raising chickens, and I'm new to the forum. I hope that this post finds everyone well I don't wish to insight any angry mobs to hunt me down for posting when I'm new to chickens anyway.

The reason I'm posting is because I often see this argument about cedar all over the internet and being new to this forum this is the latest post that discusses it so I thought I would add my comments here.

What amazes me is that no one has ever thought to consider there are multiple kinds of cedar. Not all cedar is alike. I actually work for a company that uses cedar oils in a concentrate form to sell as pest control. It's highly effective and we have customers world wide.

Some even use it in their chicken coops.

Consider the various potential kinds of cedar are as sparse as a forest when you see all the different trees. Let's go over the two different types most popular in the US and their potential side effects that can affect people, pets, and animals of all types:

Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata) - side effects include: mild irritant, sensitizer, asthma, nervous system effects, Nasopharyngeal carcinoma (rare)

Western Red Cedar is a very nasty Cedar tree. It can cause problems for anyone and animals. It is used in construction for shingles and siding. It doesn't affect everyone this way and as such some people find it to be fine. It can also have no affect with some animals, however younger or less healthy animals are most susceptible to any issues, and even some healthy animals could potentially have the issues above.

Eastern Red Cedar (Juniperus virginiana) - side effects include: mild irritant. This is all. And it doesn't even affect everyone or every animal, but the most severe issues would be a mild irritant. In fact in some cases where a person or animal may be allergic to the actual wood or chips in the case of pollen from that source, this is where a person could use a product like the product the company I work for sells (not mentioning because that's not the purpose of this post) Because it is cedar oils, and not the wood, there is no pollens. Even people and animals allergic to cedar, have no issues with the cedar oils.

Now granted some people also talk about not having a ventilated coop. This could cause distress. I've applied the cedar product even to a house through a fogger so thick that it took my breath away. So it is very possible that having to much of a build up of the aroma can make it feel as though it's hard to breath. And naturally you wouldn't want your babies to have any distress, so make sure you ventilate properly. In fact just being a coop alone has an issue of a high humidity level. You have animals, water, food, defecating, urinating. That coop is going to get humid just from the moisture from animals. So you should already have a sufficient level of ventilation or your coop will be rotting from the inside out.

Just to finish off the post. There are about a dozen different types of cedar. The most toxic are the Western Cedar and the Australian Cedar. These you definitely stay away from. Then there are a couple others that commonly cause issues. And those are Cedar of Lebanon, and the Port Orford Cedar. The former is found in the mediterranean and the latter is found in the Pacific Northwest of the US. These aren't quite as toxic however I don't think I'd want to mess with them, they have some nasty side effects.

Finally you have 8 other cedar trees. Atlantic White which is in the east, Alaskan yellow which is way north, Eastern Red which is very popular in Texas and Oklahoma extending east. Spanish Cedar which is in central and south america. Southern Red which is in the south very similar and of the same family as the Eastern Red. ALL of these have no side effects beyond just being a mild irritant to some people/animals. It does tend to be a strong odor that some people love and others aren't very fond of.

So the point of all this is to not condemn the cedar. Instead know your cedar. Where did the cedar come from? The people claiming how poisonous it is, are very correct, IF they live in one of those areas with the nasty cedar in it. I live in Oklahoma so I have mostly Southern Red and Eastern Red. I can go anywhere they are cutting up trees and ask for wood chips and have no worries of the side effects.

 

[Beekissed]

Excellent post!!! Great information and food for thought.

I think that post should be a sticky post on this forum!!!

 

[Chamqual]

I am not sure yet of the cause of my problem, but I wanted to note on this thread that a week ago when I changed out my current bedding to cedar chips my egg production dropped from 5 eggs a day to one, and has not increased after a week. I know other things can cause this, but after finding this thread I am going to switch back over to my other bedding and will up-date this thread with my positive results if any.
I am curious if this happened to anyone else.

 

[Steeldeal]

I have a 10" deep bed in my coop and would never go 100% cedar. It can be a somewhat suffocating aroma. I normally go no more than 40% cedar in the bedding, sometimes a little less. Tends to give me the benefits of cedar without being too over powering. Even the safe cedar species can be too much in high quantities.

I would think if you went from 0% to 100% that would be a bit extreme and overwhelming on the chickens. You don't need that much anyway, just enough to make it an unappealing place for pests.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Chamqual]

thanks! i really didn't even pick it for the obvious reasons that I have since read about. I was just trying something new! :/ That teaches me to read about something before I just "try" it!

 

[WalleyWaller]

Well, in summary, what is the safest of all bedding? Is there a simple, straight forward answer?

 

[Beekissed]

Well, in summary, what is the safest of all bedding? Is there a simple, straight forward answer?

Yes. It's whatever you try and find to your liking that has no ill effect on your chickens. I use a combination of shavings, leaves, pine needles, twigs, etc. It's a lovely mess of litter that smells and works wonderfully.

 

[Trefoil]

Yup- what Bee said. But that also includes doing some basic research before trying new bedding to ensure its not toxic and always having adequate ventilation.

 

[m2wandc]

What type of hay (oat, straw, alfalfa, mixed, timothy,etc) would you recommend if one is willing to use hay instead? (Sorry if I missed it above?)