question on growth

[MysteryChicken]

(lets not spam this chat writing to each other, and rather writing to the person who needs help!! )

We're not, I guarantee that. Plus, alittle bit of back, & forth on the subject is helpful sometimes.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

@U_Stormcrow , work your magic for the OP?

I am summoned! No magic, just math.

As soon as I finish gathering eggs and finding a new way to protect the brooder box from the interests of the "feral" "barn" cat - the one who sleeps next to use, and seemingly chases no mice. But is suddenly VERY interested in days old ducks.

 

[MysteryChicken]

I am summoned! No magic, just math.

As soon as I finish gathering eggs and finding a new way to protect the brooder box from the interests of the "feral" "barn" cat - the one who sleeps next to use, and seemingly chases no mice. But is suddenly VERY interested in days old ducks.

I know, I just like to say work your magic, for certain people. Just silly that way .

We can wait, no biggy.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

OK, I'm going to start by cut and pasting the general advice, from another post I made early this AM, then I'll try and get into the specifics (based on the limited info available in the initial post).

For the typical backyard owner, of the typical backyard flock, under typical backyard management conditions, I recommend an "All Flock/Flock Raiser"-type* crumble feed for all of your birds, all of their lives, without regard to age, gender, molting status, or onset of lay. Plus free choice grit, oyster shell, and fresh clean water in seperate dishes, of course.

*For our purposes, "All Flock/Flock Layer-type means an 18-20% Protein feed, about 3.5% Fat +/-, 1.5% Calcium +/-, 3.5% Fiber +/- in that order of importance. We can really get into the weeds and talk about Methionine, Lysine, Phosphorus levels, but start with the big three - Protein, Fat, Calcium. Plenty of "Starter" or "Starter/Grower" feeds also fit this definition. The important things are the mill dates and the guaranteed nutritional label, NOT how Brand X chooses to label the bag.

Now, specifics.

Corn isn't good for your birds. Its high energy, yes (that, and price are the main reasons its a huge component of many commercial feeds), but low protein and has a poor amino acid profile overall. That said, its not SO BAD that its deficiencies can't easily be compensated for with small quantities of more expensive ingredients - grains like wheat, legumes like soy or alfalfa, pulses like peas and beans, seeds such as the various millets, sunflower, etc. Taken together, a balanced diet can be created which meets a birds nutritional needs.

Without knowing what greens are being fed, in what quantities, I can't offer individual advice, but I can offer specific general advice. How's that? Greens are high in water, low in protein, and mostly terrible sources of critical amino acids - meaning their inclusion in the diet provides negligible nutritional value, for good or ill, unless in very large quantity.

Different greens have different nutritional concerns. A number of them (beet tops, for instance) are high in oxylates, which bind calcium and can impact the diet in that way. Spinach and other large leafy cruciferous veggies share that tendency. They are also frequently high in sulphur compounds, which carries its own nutritional concerns.

Others are very high in tannins. High tannin levels in feed reduce chicken's appetite, reduce feed intake, AND inhibit nutrient absorption of what they do eat! Many crops are being (or have been) deliberately selected to reduce tannin levels to make them more palatable, and more nutritious for chickens, other livestock, and ourselves. Its sort of like if all your food tasted like sticking a tea bag in your mouth. Legumes like beans and peas are high tannin, so you want lima or great northern instead of dark red kidney... Similarly with grape and apple peels. Millets the same. Why do you think songbirds love proso millet (white), but will often pick out Indian ("dark" or "red") millet from the seed mix and throw it at the ground? They aren't stupid. Neither are your chickens.

Still others (grains like rye, barley, oats) are high in beta glucans. Beta Glucans are the key in high fiber diets for humans, slowing the passage of food through our gut and improving nutrient absorption. Unfortunately, chicken's digestive systems aren't like human digestive systems. High levels of beta glucans contribute to "sticky" poops and form a mucilaginous sludge in their digestion that inhibits nutrient absorption.

Now, Amino Acids. We haven't a clue what AAs in what ratios your birds are getting, but the three most important in a bird's nutrition are Methionine, Lysine, and Threonine. The fourth is Tryptophan, and its relatively easy to meet their relatively low Tryp requirements with a grain based diet, so we'll ignore that one.

The most important Amino Acid for chickens, particularly growing chickens, is Methionine (Met). Its responsible for connective tissue development. Hatchlings need more than adult birds, as they put themselves together. Connective tissue is skin and tendons, yes - but its also the digestive tract. Chickens with high Met levels in their diets in their first months of life develop superior digestive tracts, specifically the condition of the ileum, which will aid them in nutrient absorption all their lives. Not enough Met and the rest of the AA don't matter - nothing can substitute for it, though Met can be transformed into another AA we needen't discuss here, it can't be transformed back. Met is also used in the processing of dietary sulphur and selenium - selenium is particularly important to bone density, among other functions. Unfortunately, almost every plant source is low Met - so low in fact that synthetic Met is allowed to be added to feeds containing the "Organic" label - its that critical.

Lysine (Lys) is the second most important AA, primarily for muscle development, particularly in the breast but also the heart. Lys is additionally used in the transfer of fat to the cells for conversion into energy. Chickens with lower Lys levels in their youth will simply never get as big as those with superior diets. Beans, Legumes, Pulses are all good sources of Lys, but low Met. and potential Tannin concerns - some are also very starchy and tend towards higher beta glucan levels.

Threonine is the third most important AA, though its levels don't matter if the Met and Lys needs aren't being met. Threonine is used in membrane development and is key to proper operation of the nervous system. It makes eggs with nice firm yolks, and helps protect the developing chickens inside the egg from contaminants on the outside. Also helps with the immune system and the various mucous membranes, so has a secondary role in nutrient absorption. Its relatively easily obtained in grain based diets, so it doesn't appear on US guaranteed nutritional labels, just like Tryptophan (used for processing of niacin and production of neurotransmitters like seratonin and melatonin).

End result? Virtually all ingredients for a chicken's feed have potential benefits and pitfalls. Creation of a balanced feed is complicated (assuming you want to do it right) balancing act, using a variety of ingredients from a variety of sources. The more I learn about the subject, the less inclined I am to attempt it myself.

Hope that's instructive.

 

[WandaLiz]

I know, that’s why she should change feed to something which provides more nutrients which the chick may not be getting enough of.

thank you so much! i am getting pictures soon! i am totally blind and do not have a camera so i am waiting for my sister to take pictures. In the mean time i will change the feed.

 

[WandaLiz]

Is it possible to get pictures of the chicken in question? Maybe with a hatch mate, too, to show the differences in size between them?

Is it possible to get pictures of the chicken in question? Maybe with a hatch mate, too, to show the differences in size between them?

hello! i apologise for delaying in my response. i will send pictures soon! i apologise i have delayed. I am totally blind and i am waiting for my sister to come with her camera! thanks so much!

 

[WandaLiz]

dear BackYard Chickens friends!
here my sister took some pictures, to the best of her ability. We apologise we couldn't take a picture of Coki side by side with her brother Kiro ( he never came close to the cage). Here is a picture of coki. She is the tailless young hen inside a cage, and piru is the young roo that is free-ranging. The other hen inside the cage is there by casualty, we are just waiting enough time to release her and her two chicks. Overnight they are moved to a closed area. We really love them very much! Thank you so much!

 

[MysteryChicken]

dear BackYard Chickens friends!
here my sister took some pictures, to the best of her ability. We apologise we couldn't take a picture of Coki side by side with her brother Kiro ( he never came close to the cage). Here is a picture of coki. She is the tailless young hen inside a cage, and piru is the young roo that is free-ranging. The other hen inside the cage is there by casualty, we are just waiting enough time to release her and her two chicks. Overnight they are moved to a closed area. We really love them very much! Thank you so much!

They're Gamefowl, & cute.
The male appears rumpless, so he has a mutation that causes no tail. It's seen in breeds like araucanas.

He doesn't really look under sized, I think he's naturally smallish.

 

[WandaLiz]

thank you so much!!!!!! we are very relieved and very happy to hear your answer! those birds are very special to us indeed! thank you very much!!!!!

 

[MysteryChicken]

thank you so much!!!!!! we are very relieved and very happy to hear your answer! those birds are very special to us indeed! thank you very much!!!!!

You're welcome.