Sick duck? Help!

[Miss Lydia]

Good to hear, wonder what happened? Might never know, but sounds like you got some great advice here.

Just wanted to say, about the charcoal, it's a lifesaver for sure, but cannot treat ALL toxins. Some cannot be treated, some can be treated in other ways. Vitamin C in mega-doses can treat some things charcoal cannot. Another great one to always have on hand for your animals.

Best wishes, hope she goes from strength to strength.

Can you give us an idea which would treat what chooks.

 

[Miss Lydia]

Thank you!! I will be picking some up to have on hand!

Rosie today took 2 steps by herself, her head still dangles a little but she lifted it up to look at me!

she is so much stronger today!!

Thank you again everybody!!!

That is so great news.. when you get a chance we want to see a pic of this girl named Rosie.

 

[chooks4life]

Can you give us an idea which would treat what chooks.

The best info I have found when it comes to matching toxin with detoxifier is not specifically on the plants/sources of toxins themselves, but on the detoxifiers themselves; learning what charcoal binds to and what vit C targets is more helpful initially than trying to memorize a whole library of different plants or sources of toxins and their active form of toxin. If in doubt use all detoxers you have, in my opinion, though. Calcium, charcoal, vit C, bentonite, etc.

I keep both activated charcoal and vit C on hand and often use both in succession in toxicity cases rather than bank on one alone when I only know that an animal is poisoned, but don't know what by. They're both lifesavers which have many common uses but also have areas of no overlap. I found it beneficial to have good quality charcoal on hand for the chooks, crushed into edible pieces and left around their coops for them to self-administer. Same for sheep and other animals. They can treat cases of poisoning by themselves that way.

Charcoal also absorbs nutrients so can decrease or entirely prevent absorption of nutrients while it goes through the gut, so for example, if your animal is showing a severe deficit of calcium and/or magnesium, being two of the natural detoxers present in the body at all times (therefore first to be depleted) and crucial to life, then giving a charcoal dose orally along with a cal/mag shot intravenously would be preferential to only giving charcoal, or trying to give both charcoal and magnesium orally. In such a case the animal could suffer cardiac arrest due to low cal-mag levels before the charcoal could remove the toxins from the gut, or even if the charcoal got to the source of toxins in time and prevented them from killing the animal via toxicity alone. If you couldn't get a calcium/magnesium/combo shot in time but knew the cal mag levels were critical then giving cal mag before charcoal could be a better move. But in such a case vit C might be the better choice.

Generally, charcoal works best on toxins which are readily available to the particles of charcoal, i.e. toxic ingested matter, though it can to some extent draw toxins out of intestinal walls as well, but in the case of fully absorbed toxins or those not present in the GI tract, vitamin C either orally or intravenously is better.

Vitamin C megadose will generally work better topically, intravenously and orally in cases of toxins such as venom from spider/ insect/ snake bites, some artificial/industrial toxins which were not orally ingested (generally, though charcoal and/or milk (or cal mag liquid) baths/soaks for the latter can work well too); and there are some specific plants better treated by either charcoal or vitamin C if ingested. Vit C is absorbed into the skin far deeper and faster than charcoal can be, so topically it's the better bet.

To get a clearer picture of what charcoal can't help with, or what it has limited ability to help with, it is beneficial to know what it binds well to.

Normally, activated charcoal should not be used to treat the ingestion of corrosive poisons like acids, fuel oil, alcohols such as ethanol, methanol, isopropyl alcohol, glycols and acetone, lye, etc.

Charcoal also does not bind well to certain substances including lithium, ammonia, strong acids and bases, metals and most inorganic minerals, such as sodium, iron, lead, arsenic, fluorine, and boric acid; also it doesn't bind well to hydrocarbons such as petroleum distillates, plant hyrocarbons and pine oil. Activated carbon does adsorb iodine very well though.

Vit C appears to have a broader-spectrum application than charcoal. Both are invaluable and save lives but if I had to pick just one to have on hand I would choose vit C.

Best wishes.

 

[Miss Lydia]

The best info I have found when it comes to matching toxin with detoxifier is not specifically on the plants/sources of toxins themselves, but on the detoxifiers themselves; learning what charcoal binds to and what vit C targets is more helpful initially than trying to memorize a whole library of different plants or sources of toxins and their active form of toxin. If in doubt use all detoxers you have, in my opinion, though. Calcium, charcoal, vit C, bentonite, etc.

I keep both activated charcoal and vit C on hand and often use both in succession in toxicity cases rather than bank on one alone when I only know that an animal is poisoned, but don't know what by. They're both lifesavers which have many common uses but also have areas of no overlap. I found it beneficial to have good quality charcoal on hand for the chooks, crushed into edible pieces and left around their coops for them to self-administer. Same for sheep and other animals. They can treat cases of poisoning by themselves that way.

Charcoal also absorbs nutrients so can decrease or entirely prevent absorption of nutrients while it goes through the gut, so for example, if your animal is showing a severe deficit of calcium and/or magnesium, being two of the natural detoxers present in the body at all times (therefore first to be depleted) and crucial to life, then giving a charcoal dose orally along with a cal/mag shot intravenously would be preferential to only giving charcoal, or trying to give both charcoal and magnesium orally. In such a case the animal could suffer cardiac arrest due to low cal-mag levels before the charcoal could remove the toxins from the gut, or even if the charcoal got to the source of toxins in time and prevented them from killing the animal via toxicity alone. If you couldn't get a calcium/magnesium/combo shot in time but knew the cal mag levels were critical then giving cal mag before charcoal could be a better move. But in such a case vit C might be the better choice.

Generally, charcoal works best on toxins which are readily available to the particles of charcoal, i.e. toxic ingested matter, though it can to some extent draw toxins out of intestinal walls as well, but in the case of fully absorbed toxins or those not present in the GI tract, vitamin C either orally or intravenously is better.

Vitamin C megadose will generally work better topically, intravenously and orally in cases of toxins such as venom from spider/ insect/ snake bites, some artificial/industrial toxins which were not orally ingested (generally, though charcoal and/or milk (or cal mag liquid) baths/soaks for the latter can work well too); and there are some specific plants better treated by either charcoal or vitamin C if ingested. Vit C is absorbed into the skin far deeper and faster than charcoal can be, so topically it's the better bet.

To get a clearer picture of what charcoal can't help with, or what it has limited ability to help with, it is beneficial to know what it binds well to.

Normally, activated charcoal should not be used to treat the ingestion of corrosive poisons like acids, fuel oil, alcohols such as ethanol, methanol, isopropyl alcohol, glycols and acetone, lye, etc.

Charcoal also does not bind well to certain substances including lithium, ammonia, strong acids and bases, metals and most inorganic minerals, such as sodium, iron, lead, arsenic, fluorine, and boric acid; also it doesn't bind well to hydrocarbons such as petroleum distillates, plant hyrocarbons and pine oil. Activated carbon does adsorb iodine very well though.

Vit C appears to have a broader-spectrum application than charcoal. Both are invaluable and save lives but if I had to pick just one to have on hand I would choose vit C.

Best wishes.

Thanks for the info, I have never heard of using Vit C in treating toxins so this is valuable info I take Vit C daily 1000mgs so I always have it on hand but you refer to mega doses can you give what that would be so if we had to use it on our flock we would know how high a dose they can have. and do you mix the VitC and AC together for a treatment? I also have bentonite and did not know it was safe to give tho the flock. although I have used DE to keep feed fresh.

 

[chooks4life]

Thanks for the info, I have never heard of using Vit C in treating toxins so this is valuable info I take Vit C daily 1000mgs so I always have it on hand but you refer to mega doses can you give what that would be so if we had to use it on our flock we would know how high a dose they can have. and do you mix the VitC and AC together for a treatment? I also have bentonite and did not know it was safe to give tho the flock. although I have used DE to keep feed fresh.

You're very welcome. Basically you don't need to worry about overdosing; they might get 'the runs', is about it. If a normal daily dose is 30 mgs, for example, giving 1000 mgs is still not going to be an issue.

Mega doses are not often required to obtain detoxification, just a higher dose than normal will do it, but I tend to overdo it when I know an animal has had something very toxic, just to be sure. I've never seen adverse reactions to vit C. But I am fussy about whether or not it has additives, generally. The lactose in some vit C's is no good for ruminants or even the average animal.

If you, for example, crushed up a vit C 1000 mg tablet for every 2 chooks if you knew they'd eaten something toxic, that could be sufficient. I get ascorbic acid powder to add straight to their food though, easier than crushing tablets. Helpful precaution when you have new chooks or other animals exploring a landscape containing deadly ornamental plants or insects they've never seen before.

Provided the 'patient' does not have advanced renal failure or one of those rare genetic diseases known to be sensitive to high vit C levels, the only side effect of extremely high doses is diarrhea, but the levels officially quoted as sufficient to cause diarrhea, I've never seen to cause diarrhea. Not even twice or quadruple those levels caused diarrhea. Also, in some cases of renal failure or other renal issues, vit C is beneficial. I.e. enterotoxaemia.

This is about the most finite example of a 'upper limit' I have seen, but it's a bit dubious (Wikipedia) and the form of the vit C would be very important to know there:
Quote:
Plain Ascorbic acid is generally best, but many vit C's contain various additives like lactose which causes separate side effects. Most vitamins/minerals/nutrients naturally come combined with the other nutrients required for the body to process them, so isolated nutrients can sometimes be harmful or just fail to do their job in the body, or cause an imbalance in the other nutrients required for processing which were already present in the body but not combined with the isolated nutrient. Vit C generally does not seem to have that issue, but I am picky about brands and go for clinically tested ones when able.

Vit C is one of those things which is almost impossible to overdose on --- you can go many times over the recommended daily dose without any harm noted. But the daily dose recommended by the FDA many would take exception to, it's almost perilously low. (Playing it very, very 'safe'). Well, I guess under-nutrition is 'safer' than over-nutrition simply because the former kills you slower. But really they're both just opposite ends of the spectrum of malnutrition.

As an example for overdose levels, I have a sheep who, as a one-week-old lamb, came down with 9 or so adult female paralysis ticks. (If you're not familiar with them, well, it's only the females who harm you, and only as adults; they cause paralysis within anywhere from a few hours to a week or so and by the time you notice symptoms it's often too late. One tick is sufficient to kill an adult animal).

She belonged to someone else at the time, but I was renting there as well; she was orally mega-dosed with about 6000 mg of vit C in one go, multiple times within 48 hours, plus topical application on the bite areas via lemon juice. She survived and recovered movement unusually rapidly whereas a 6 month old lamb from the same flock died within 48 hours from one paralysis tick with no vit C treatment (it was a case of 'trying new things' with the second paralysis tick case).

The surviving lamb was infected with all manner of bacteria from an unhygienic kitchen and feeding practices and by the time I got her she had severe pulpy kidney and a grossly sickened GI tract. I continued to dose her with very high vit C levels regularly and she made a full recovery. As an adult, given a chance, she will scoff many thousands of mgs of vit C in one go, her record stands at about 30 000 mgs in a sitting (before I put a stop to that meal, lol), all with no ill effects. It's been my stand-by for avoiding toxicity when she's gotten into the ornamental gardens or eaten various things I know for sure are very deadly. And she's done that dozens of times now. (She can be quite a Houdini. Plus many visitors have some automatic reaction to sheep or goats, they immediately go fetch any plant they see and feed it to them, without the faintest clue of whether it is safe or not).

As for bentonite, same as with AC you can experience symptoms caused by its extreme absorbency, so constipation etc; otherwise it's much of a muchness with AC, really. As with AC or just plain charcoal, they will often help themselves to it if given a chance. I would sprinkle small amounts around for them, not enough for any one individual to overdose and get clogged up and dehydrated though. Enough for them to taste test and learn how much causes what internal reaction. They will often be able to self medicate safely and reliably if introduced in slow and small amounts so they have time to learn about it prior to letting them have free choice large doses available.

If the bag isn't labeled for animal use I wouldn't feed it to them, but if it's pure stuff and not poor grade theoretically it should be ok, not contaminated or with additives.

My sheep would also make detours into the garden to dig up and eat bentonite that was being used for water retention for the plants, and she would also willingly eat charcoal whenever given a chance, and the chooks are the same. In fact tomorrow I'm off to resupply with charcoal as she's foundered due to getting into too much chook grain plus a laundry list of other unavoidable issues all occurring in combination in the last few days, and AC is one way you knock a laminitis attack on the head.

As for adding vit C and AC, I rarely add them both in conjunction as the AC can possibly absorb the vit C to the point of it being useless, but if you want to use both just to be sure, then I would use the vit C first as it's rapidly absorbed into the tissues, and follow up about 5 minutes or so later with the AC, or any time after that. Give it half an hour if it's not desperate, probably, before adding the AC.

Some people in my family have lymphatic issues, their skin can get as sore as if they've been bruised; topical application of lemon juice instantly takes the pain out. That indicates quite a good degree of rapid penetration of vit C in active form.

Best wishes.

 

[Miss Lydia]

You're very welcome. Basically you don't need to worry about overdosing; they might get 'the runs', is about it. If a normal daily dose is 30 mgs, for example, giving 1000 mgs is still not going to be an issue.

Mega doses are not often required to obtain detoxification, just a higher dose than normal will do it, but I tend to overdo it when I know an animal has had something very toxic, just to be sure. I've never seen adverse reactions to vit C. But I am fussy about whether or not it has additives, generally. The lactose in some vit C's is no good for ruminants or even the average animal.

If you, for example, crushed up a vit C 1000 mg tablet for every 2 chooks if you knew they'd eaten something toxic, that could be sufficient. I get ascorbic acid powder to add straight to their food though, easier than crushing tablets. Helpful precaution when you have new chooks or other animals exploring a landscape containing deadly ornamental plants or insects they've never seen before.

Provided the 'patient' does not have advanced renal failure or one of those rare genetic diseases known to be sensitive to high vit C levels, the only side effect of extremely high doses is diarrhea, but the levels officially quoted as sufficient to cause diarrhea, I've never seen to cause diarrhea. Not even twice or quadruple those levels caused diarrhea. Also, in some cases of renal failure or other renal issues, vit C is beneficial. I.e. enterotoxaemia.

This is about the most finite example of a 'upper limit' I have seen, but it's a bit dubious (Wikipedia) and the form of the vit C would be very important to know there:

Plain Ascorbic acid is generally best, but many vit C's contain various additives like lactose which causes separate side effects. Most vitamins/minerals/nutrients naturally come combined with the other nutrients required for the body to process them, so isolated nutrients can sometimes be harmful or just fail to do their job in the body, or cause an imbalance in the other nutrients required for processing which were already present in the body but not combined with the isolated nutrient. Vit C generally does not seem to have that issue, but I am picky about brands and go for clinically tested ones when able.

Vit C is one of those things which is almost impossible to overdose on --- you can go many times over the recommended daily dose without any harm noted. But the daily dose recommended by the FDA many would take exception to, it's almost perilously low. (Playing it very, very 'safe'). Well, I guess under-nutrition is 'safer' than over-nutrition simply because the former kills you slower. But really they're both just opposite ends of the spectrum of malnutrition.

As an example for overdose levels, I have a sheep who, as a one-week-old lamb, came down with 9 or so adult female paralysis ticks. (If you're not familiar with them, well, it's only the females who harm you, and only as adults; they cause paralysis within anywhere from a few hours to a week or so and by the time you notice symptoms it's often too late. One tick is sufficient to kill an adult animal).

She belonged to someone else at the time, but I was renting there as well; she was orally mega-dosed with about 6000 mg of vit C in one go, multiple times within 48 hours, plus topical application on the bite areas via lemon juice. She survived and recovered movement unusually rapidly whereas a 6 month old lamb from the same flock died within 48 hours from one paralysis tick with no vit C treatment (it was a case of 'trying new things' with the second paralysis tick case).

The surviving lamb was infected with all manner of bacteria from an unhygienic kitchen and feeding practices and by the time I got her she had severe pulpy kidney and a grossly sickened GI tract. I continued to dose her with very high vit C levels regularly and she made a full recovery. As an adult, given a chance, she will scoff many thousands of mgs of vit C in one go, her record stands at about 30 000 mgs in a sitting (before I put a stop to that meal, lol), all with no ill effects. It's been my stand-by for avoiding toxicity when she's gotten into the ornamental gardens or eaten various things I know for sure are very deadly. And she's done that dozens of times now. (She can be quite a Houdini. Plus many visitors have some automatic reaction to sheep or goats, they immediately go fetch any plant they see and feed it to them, without the faintest clue of whether it is safe or not).

As for bentonite, same as with AC you can experience symptoms caused by its extreme absorbency, so constipation etc; otherwise it's much of a muchness with AC, really. As with AC or just plain charcoal, they will often help themselves to it if given a chance. I would sprinkle small amounts around for them, not enough for any one individual to overdose and get clogged up and dehydrated though. Enough for them to taste test and learn how much causes what internal reaction. They will often be able to self medicate safely and reliably if introduced in slow and small amounts so they have time to learn about it prior to letting them have free choice large doses available.

If the bag isn't labeled for animal use I wouldn't feed it to them, but if it's pure stuff and not poor grade theoretically it should be ok, not contaminated or with additives.

My sheep would also make detours into the garden to dig up and eat bentonite that was being used for water retention for the plants, and she would also willingly eat charcoal whenever given a chance, and the chooks are the same. In fact tomorrow I'm off to resupply with charcoal as she's foundered due to getting into too much chook grain plus a laundry list of other unavoidable issues all occurring in combination in the last few days, and AC is one way you knock a laminitis attack on the head.

As for adding vit C and AC, I rarely add them both in conjunction as the AC can possibly absorb the vit C to the point of it being useless, but if you want to use both just to be sure, then I would use the vit C first as it's rapidly absorbed into the tissues, and follow up about 5 minutes or so later with the AC, or any time after that. Give it half an hour if it's not desperate, probably, before adding the AC.

Some people in my family have lymphatic issues, their skin can get as sore as if they've been bruised; topical application of lemon juice instantly takes the pain out. That indicates quite a good degree of rapid penetration of vit C in active form.

Best wishes.

Thanks so much for the valuable info. I will put this in my bookmark so i have it if I ever need it. I have used the AC for my dogs and myself but didn't realize how good Vit C was in detoxification so good to know.

 

[chooks4life]

Very welcome, I only comparatively recently learned about it myself (a few years back) but have used it many times and found it a true lifesaver.

Best wishes.

 

[MarysAviaryHeartAndZoo]

On my way now, niacin too??

found this info so if she can swallow it may not be a toxin or botulism.

Botulism

Symptoms: loss of muscular control of legs, wings and neck - hence the term limber-neck. Birds are unable to swallow.

Cause: toxins produced by bacteria (Clostridia) in decaying animal and vegetable waste. The toxins cause the problem.

Treatment: avoid problems by keeping ducks out of muddy/dirty areas and stagnant pools, especially in hot weather. The bacteria multiply rapidly in warmer temperatures in anaerobic conditions (where oxygen is excluded). Give affected birds fresh drinking water. If necessary, introduce water into the mouth and throat with a syringe (no needle). A crop tube could be used with the advice of a vet. Add Epsom salts (magnesium sulphate, available from the high street chemist) to the water. This is an old remedy which is still used. Recommended amounts vary from 1 tablespoon in one cup of water to 1 ounce per 50 fluid oz ( two and a half pints) of water.

still won't hurt to have the activated charcoal and the niacin on hand

MissLydia,

Could you please help me with my ducks?

Duck background: 1 - 2 year old ducks, both drakes and hens are suffering/ Free range and Purina Leyena Layer feed mixed with chick starter feed (3:1 ratio)/ live freely on lake and come home for breakfast and dinner.

I have noticed a few of the ducks (pekins and mallards) experiencing shaky legs then they can't hold themselves up and plop down. After resting for a minute, they try to walk and have trouble holding balance and use their wings to help walk down to the pond. The mallards will fly down to to pond after a shaking episode to get off their feet. I thought they might have imbalanced electrolytes (potassium mostly), so I added supplements to their water. I also made mashed bananas and mixed it in their food. I saw some improvement, but not completely. Two out of the bunch also exhibited intermittent shaky heads and body trembling. Could it be the Purina feed, as I recently changed feed brands from Dumor to Purina? Maybe botulism from decaying branches and leaves from the trees around the pond? Any suggestions on the cause or remedy? Thanks in advance

 

[chooks4life]

MissLydia,

Could you please help me with my ducks?

Duck background: 1 - 2 year old ducks, both drakes and hens are suffering/ Free range and Purina Leyena Layer feed mixed with chick starter feed (3:1 ratio)/ live freely on lake and come home for breakfast and dinner.

I have noticed a few of the ducks (pekins and mallards) experiencing shaky legs then they can't hold themselves up and plop down. After resting for a minute, they try to walk and have trouble holding balance and use their wings to help walk down to the pond. The mallards will fly down to to pond after a shaking episode to get off their feet. I thought they might have imbalanced electrolytes (potassium mostly), so I added supplements to their water. I also made mashed bananas and mixed it in their food. I saw some improvement, but not completely. Two out of the bunch also exhibited intermittent shaky heads and body trembling. Could it be the Purina feed, as I recently changed feed brands from Dumor to Purina? Maybe botulism from decaying branches and leaves from the trees around the pond? Any suggestions on the cause or remedy? Thanks in advance

@Miss Lydia
(Just tagging her in case she's unsubscribed from this thread).

I would suggest you start a new thread in the main forum in the emergencies section, where more people will see your questions, to get as many helpful responses as possible ASAP:
Quote: You may also find a variety of answers in these threads:
Quote: I haven't ever kept ducks and have no experience with botulism so I hope someone who has experienced it can help you in time.

If it's botulism (or a whole variety of other things) then go back to the start of this thread, I suggest, and try out the treatments people recommended there for starters since time is of the essence.

Oh, and as for potential feed contamination - Purina is notorious for it. I would get them off it ASAP, onto another feed, just in case; if this is aflatoxins or similar at work, the more they eat the less likely to survive they are. You won't necessarily smell or see evidence of mold in feeds.

If I understand you correctly you're feeding them chick starter despite their age...? Is this chicken chick starter or for ducklings? I would be very wary of feeding any adult animal chick starter, personally, but I know lots of people do it regularly.

Hope your ducks are okay.

Best wishes.

 

[Miss Lydia]

@Miss Lydia
(Just tagging her in case she's unsubscribed from this thread).

I would suggest you start a new thread in the main forum in the emergencies section, where more people will see your questions, to get as many helpful responses as possible ASAP:
You may also find a variety of answers in these threads:
I haven't ever kept ducks and have no experience with botulism so I hope someone who has experienced it can help you in time.

If it's botulism (or a whole variety of other things) then go back to the start of this thread, I suggest, and try out the treatments people recommended there for starters since time is of the essence.

Oh, and as for potential feed contamination - Purina is notorious for it. I would get them off it ASAP, onto another feed, just in case; if this is aflatoxins or similar at work, the more they eat the less likely to survive they are. You won't necessarily smell or see evidence of mold in feeds.

If I understand you correctly you're feeding them chick starter despite their age...? Is this chicken chick starter or for ducklings? I would be very wary of feeding any adult animal chick starter, personally, but I know lots of people do it regularly.

Hope your ducks are okay.

Best wishes.

@MaryamLoveDucks It sounds like it could very well be botulism They only way your going to be able to treat is to secure them in a pen don't let them go back to the pond.A lot of great info here so you should be good to go but don't put off treating them. Activated Charcoal and Vit C. all info on this thread. Please let us know how they are.