Small-Medium Breed LSG Dogs

[AGeese]

I am currently in the market for another dog, and got to thinking of keeping a live stock guardian (or two) for the flock. I've read a little on sheepdogs, and ideally would prefer smaller breeds of longer life spans, cold hardy enough for Midwest winters (with all the basics provided of course.)

Some of the breeds I've started to look into are Shelties, Shetlands, Border Collies, Belgians, and Aussies, which all interest me. Less sure about Schipperke
or Eskimo Dogs although they are in the small breed category. The Belgian is a larger sheepdog with such great all around qualities, but seems to be mostly bred now as a companion animal.

Wondering what the BYC community recommends and if you have small breeds that make good guardians for your birds -minus the prey drive.

Thanks ahead!

 

[addctd2plnts]

You're talking about two totally different groups of dogs. LGD= Livestock Guardian Dog. It stays with the livestock and protects them from predators. Generally these breeds are: Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherds, Spanish Mastiffs, and Pyrenean Mastiffs, and other 100+ pound dogs in this group. Then there's HERDING DOGS like Border Collies, Australian Shepherds, English Shepherds, Australian Cattle Dogs, Welsh Corgis and other dogs that chase/herd/move the livestock. They are totally opposite in how they work because the guard dogs are trained to NEVER chase the livestock but sit around patiently/calmly with them, or maybe roam the perimeter to check every so often. But HERDING dogs, generally never sit still and are very high strung. Herding dogs are bred to MOVE livestock, not really to guard. They are very focused on the movement of the herd, not what's going on outside the herd. Can a herding dog guard? Maybe but it will NEVER take on a predator with the same level of determination and ferocity as a Pyrenean Mastiff and TWO guard dogs will efficiently work together to kill any predator, not just chase it away. When you have a job to do with livestock, you need the breed that was selected for the job for several hundred years. I've had both a Pyrenean Mastiff and a Border Collie. My Pyrenean Mastiff was as deadly as a shot gun and would die protecting us (We didn't have livestock at the time, but my 8 children became his herd). Nobody was getting onto our property! He had a huge deep bark that told everyone he was 165 pounds of force. The Border Collie never even barked. She never would have stayed with livestock. I suppose I ccould force her but I don't think she ever would have attacked a fox. She might run out to play, but she didn't have that deep need to protect anything. Until you have your first real guard dog, you cannot understand how seriously they take their job! The analogy is somewhat like using a Golden Retriever for Police dog work. They just aren't bred for it.

 

[AGeese]

Yeah I understand the differences, but a large dog is not practical for me right now and that is my motivation here to what might be feasible. I have experience with Terriers and Miniature Pinschers, they are perfect guardians, but they're also active trackers with strong prey drive. I'm just trying to get my last Min Pin not to lunge at the birds. He's doing much better 6 months in, but still gets a little jumpy.

I don't know if there's a smaller breed watch dog that would fit here. There isn't acres upon acres to guard, just the vicinity of the house and out buildings, about an acre of pasture.

 

[townchicks]

I can't speak as to LGDs, as I haven't known any that are used for the purpose. It sounds like you are maybe looking for a pet, that will chase off a predator? I would not recommend that approach .I have had shelties and while they will bark and chase things, a coyote or raccoon will easily pick one off.They would stand zero chance. Aussies, some will protect, some will not. They will bark! I would not count on schipperke or American Eskimo to protect, but they will also bark warnings.Again, both of those would stand little chance in a fight. Prey drive? Yes on eskimo, not sure on schipperke. I had a McNab that would have defended hie "flock" against all comers, and was always on lookout. He had prey drive, was death on rats, and a squirrel, but did not even look at my chickens. 50 lbs, but short hair, though double coated. Maybe could handle winters there, but the breed was developed in California, so, IDK. There are folks on the facebook page I frequent that live in snowy areas. Any dog, of course would need to be taught that the chickens are off limits, but McNabs are quick learners and easily trained. Frankly , a smaller GSD may be a good choice, My sister had one that was 60 lbs and was very protective, but not in any way aggressive. Many have too high of a prey drive, and temperaments are all over the map these days, sadly. Out of the breeds you mention, I'd say Aussie.

 

[addctd2plnts]

I wouldn't try it, because my gut says you'll just end up with another house pet. You might better spend the money in electric netting and predator proof night coops, and maybe a camera. None of these things eat or have vet bills. They don't bark and annoy the neighbors. They aren't a 10-15 year commitment, and they can be sold easily.

Not all herding dogs actually have high prey drive, but they don't have the natural instinct to want to stay with the livestock and GUARD. The really good herding dog breeders actually temperament test all the puppies individually, both for prey drive and herding drive, which are actually two separate things. But these breeders would charge more and as soon as they heard you wanted the dog as a guard dog for livestock, they'd likely shy away from placing a pup with you, because the situation is too likely to fail. The really good breeders want their pups back if you aren't happy, so they make sure to place them into homes that are great lifetime homes.

 

[AGeese]

Not pet, dog(s) would be given shelter near the flocks.

 

[townchicks]

Not pet, dog(s) would be given shelter near the flocks.

In that case, seriously, you need an LGD breed. If you can't handle a large dog, use other means to protect your livestock.

 

[AGeese]

I know people are staunchly either pet or utility, and think of this as a black and white question. I think symbiotic relationship regardless. I'm looking for certain guard qualities, am I looking for a substitute for a Mastiff not at all.

I under stand the limitations of what I'm asking. I also have kept dogs all my life so I'm prepared to understand a breed's traits before rushing out to buy dogs and hope they will fit whatever application I have dreamed up.

The only further infrastructure I am investing in is fence fabric, posts, and hardware as I am finishing up the yard this season.

Edit: the birds will be in at night, and I think top predators we have to watch for are Bald Eagles, and Coyotes that rally at sun down and pass through in the middle of the night.

 

[LavenderDaFlerf]

I've heard that shnauzers are good lgds.

 

[AGeese]

I've heard that shnauzers are good lgds.

Interesting I haven't given them much thought, a neighbor had one, great dogs.