The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[Cali Farms]

Thank you Hartland. I have heard allot of people falling victim to Bobfarm of Ebay. It's amazing that ebay won't do anything about it, even with all the complaints I'm sure he gets. I don't understand why he has 100% feedback rating on ebay either? How is that possible with him sending eggs that hatch out mutts? :/ Maybe they leave feedback before 21 days it takes them to hatch?

I got 2 shipments from Greenfire. First young pair I got from them were not good quality. The rooster grew up a few months later with a Mulberry red comb and bright red neck, bright white skin, (Not even light Gray skin), but white skin, and White Ear lobes.... I could not believe that the all might GreenFire farms would send me this low of quality, especially for what I paid. There's no way they could have been pure. I asked for photos before they sent me them and they denied photos before selling me and shipping me them... However, I gave them a second chance a few months later and they sent me allot better quality the second time with dark black facial pigment and dark gray skin, but still no black or grey mouths. Their inner mouths were mostly white and pink like a normal chicken. Feather Lover Farms also sent excellent quality and they are where I got my birds with the solid black inside the mouths and tongue. They also have great communication and are really great to work with.

I'm still working on my progress helping improve this breed but I think if we all work together we can eventually regularly produce solid black Cemani like they are supposed to be. It will take allot of time, allot of breeding, allot of culling, and keeping only the best of the best to continue breeding. The problem is there were only a few birds imported into the country by Greenfire Farms and the lovely Miss Toni-Marie Astin. Eventually Ayam Cemani will become quite inbred with breeders continuously swapping Cemani. I wish someone would do another import. That would help out allot and give us possibly better quality to work with.

 

[Dorthia]

Hi there is a gentlemen in my area offer what he calls Oriental Cemani for sale that lay blue eggs. Just wondering what every bodies thoughts are.

 

[Phage]

Hi there is a gentlemen in my area offer what he calls Oriental Cemani for sale that lay blue eggs. Just wondering what every bodies thoughts are.

They have pink skin and look like a Legbar crossed with something.

 

[artblueggwanter]

Hi there is a gentlemen in my area offer what he calls Oriental Cemani for sale that lay blue eggs. Just wondering what every bodies thoughts are.

they look nice but are not cemani. silkie mix maybe?

 

[Dorthia]

Thanks everyone !

 

[WaterfowlWierdo]

I just acquired two pairs of young cemani this week, they are 4 months old and are pure GFF lines. I have access to two other lines as well, but I dont recall the names off the top of my head. Anyway. one of the Roo's was given to me because he has flaws, So I will keep him until I have chicks from the trio with the good rooster, because i would hate to butcher him now, and have something happen to my good roo. In the off chance of that, I will use the bad roo for one clutch, hold back the best roo and use him over his related hens until I locate another good, unrelated roo.

 

[birdman55]

I just separated my cemanis from the rest of my flock today. In a couple weeks I'll increase their daylight hours and then do a test hatch. They basically had the winter off.

Speaking of winter, even tho I had been putting Vaseline on my roosters comb, I noticed today that he's got some frostbite there. He might just have too big of a comb for NY winters. Poor guy, tho it doesn't seem slow him down.

Birdman, do u do anything extra to get ur birds thru the Michigan winters? It must get very cold there.

i do nothing...i have them in enclosed greenhouses...but other then that nope...it is what it is....survival of the fittest...if they dont survive...then i shouldnt have breed them in the first place....all the birds survived the winter....however one has some interesting white in it....i will sure to post some pics....and it is straight from gff....not sure what is going on with the gff stock....but my opinion is this...the birds on which they got from over seas where obviously mixed with something else at one point in time...hence my theory of even if you buy straight from the importers, which i have done, it doesnt mean crap, doesnt even mean you will get a quality bird.....i would say ten percent of what you get from the importers will be breeders all the rest have been donated to religious sacrifice in certain cultures....people give big respect for birds like these....and all they do is butcher them...the amount of shaman that i have given birds to and the amount of respect i have earned in those cultures is something you cannot replace...im so happy...this alone paid for my experience with these fibro breeds alone....

I'm not hatching my own at the moment, but I do have three chicks arriving from Greenfire next Tuesday. I'm hoping one or two are cockerels.

dont worry you will get mostly males....and most of those wont be breeders....been there experienced that with gff...just grab the best one and do it yourself.....

This makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, all them beautiful ayam cemanis.

candice i must say i am impressed...i cant wait to be able to look out back with a bunch of black birds.....great work....

Thank you Hartland. I have heard allot of people falling victim to Bobfarm of Ebay. It's amazing that ebay won't do anything about it, even with all the complaints I'm sure he gets. I don't understand why he has 100% feedback rating on ebay either? How is that possible with him sending eggs that hatch out mutts? :/ Maybe they leave feedback before 21 days it takes them to hatch?

I got 2 shipments from Greenfire. First young pair I got from them were not good quality. The rooster grew up a few months later with a Mulberry red comb and bright red neck, bright white skin, (Not even light Gray skin), but white skin, and White Ear lobes.... I could not believe that the all might GreenFire farms would send me this low of quality, especially for what I paid. There's no way they could have been pure. I asked for photos before they sent me them and they denied photos before selling me and shipping me them... However, I gave them a second chance a few months later and they sent me allot better quality the second time with dark black facial pigment and dark gray skin, but still no black or grey mouths. Their inner mouths were mostly white and pink like a normal chicken. Feather Lover Farms also sent excellent quality and they are where I got my birds with the solid black inside the mouths and tongue. They also have great communication and are really great to work with.

I'm still working on my progress helping improve this breed but I think if we all work together we can eventually regularly produce solid black Cemani like they are supposed to be. It will take allot of time, allot of breeding, allot of culling, and keeping only the best of the best to continue breeding. The problem is there were only a few birds imported into the country by Greenfire Farms and the lovely Miss Toni-Marie Astin. Eventually Ayam Cemani will become quite inbred with breeders continuously swapping Cemani. I wish someone would do another import. That would help out allot and give us possibly better quality to work with.

falling victim to bobfarm is something but falling victim to gff is the same thing but people just dont post about it....read my forum below and you will see how i got treated...with over 61000 views im sure plenty of people have seen....people need to educate themselves and do the research and even after you find the source it is no different....and they (importers) have no control because they have no control and what was bread with there stock prior to them getting their birds...people must remember this when buying this breed.....you will get maybe 10-20 percent good usable birds for reproduction and that is if you are lucky....my 2000 dollar investment into the ayam cemani stock thru greenfire farms went to my dogs as food...and i was certainly not impressed with none of it....like i said before the common silky that my asian friends grew last year had more black properties then directly from the importer...i had one good rooster from gff and saved another just for pic purposes to show what people should expect.....will take pics and they will be on my forum later today....the only way you are going to get good quality stock is if you know someone who illegally brought in the real deal from indonesia....and their are plenty of people out there that have....so just look around...

 

[birdman55]

with that being said i want to share what this genius of a person and his forum will state...this guy is something else people he is truly a genius and has more info then any person i have every met in my life...this is what he says....just a portion on his thread.....

Anyone interested in a reconstituted cemani - and let me reiterate clearly, cemani is not a breed. It's a carefully selected morphotype. When specific genetic matrix are line bred for generations cemani are produced. That's only 25% of the equation. Black boned cemani morphs bred together should produce Hsian Dragonbone, which is the "wild type" that Indonesian stock reverts to. This is critical because in these birds we can recognise what degree of bekisar genetics are expressed in that lineage. Quality cemani are produced by breeding from dragonbone. That will seem counter-productive to some people. They want cemani to produce cemani . In Western cultures there is also a tendency to cull and dump stock that is actually invaluable. In Indonesia those individuals that don't look like cemani are simply named accordingly to their type. Dragonbone being a prime example.

In these mirror phenotypes of Indonesians produced in North America and Europe -without the benefit of recent infusion of genetics from Indonesia - I don't have confidence what "wild type" will be produced. The degree of development of modern breeds refined in the west is much greater than that in Indonesia. Each breed breeds true. They produce more of the same and most of the stock is really well bred. People don't fool around. If they are rearing a chicken breed -specialising in a specific breed it's going to be a ribbon winner or close to it.
I tend to think that these Western black fowl will produce nothing but black. Unless there is Indonesian genetics involved I rather doubt anything resembling "wild type" will be produced.
Jet black birds will be dominant. They may well have a variety of different comb type and naturally the degree of pigmentation is going to vary from bird to bird. There are also different kinds of pigment involved including typical melanin and eumelanin. Different black boned fowl carry different levels of these pigments and there are additional pigments accrued from additional genetic infusion involved as well. More specifically, the pigments responsible for producing vivid blue are inherited from a green junglefowl ancestor. I won't go into that right now but these pigments are involved in hyper melanism of the darkest cemani.


That said, frizzled silky like stunts hatch with increasing frequency with each generation of line breeding. These birds should not be used to breed dragonbone but can certainly be used in other stock-or just eat them...

It's essential to comprehend what genetic elements are going to be pivotal to your success.

Chooks Chicks is developing a black boned fowl (from imported Indonesian stock) with a pea or leaf like elfin comb- ironically the comb of the Gambar taproot of many cemani in Indonesia. I came to agree with her- and think that comb type may be as- if not more- appropriate for North American climates than the gargantuan comb and wattles of equatorial lineages.

The most important stock to avoid using is the silky. That's a disqualification of the largest degree. If you want to breed black boned breeds that are not the Indonesian type- crests and extra toes- the traits of silkies may be acceptable to a point- but to arrive at an Indonesian morphotype you've got to have the discipline to not use silkies, especially as your heirloom lineages will eventually be recombined with other poultier's best efforts and your silky outcrosses are going to screw everything up.

That said, this lovely ashen grey bird is just gorgeous and I'd use her in a minute!!! WHAT?

The most important mother stock- that is the female line that will serve as your reservoir is the Black Java. Don't worry about melanin yet- for now you just need the appropriate bloodstock. There is no better taproot for this constitution than large boned healthy Black Java hens. You'll never use a Black Java rooster so don't bother purchasing one.

The next gene stock that will prove absolutely pivotal for that Black Java lineage is the absolutely best quality miniature Sumatran rooster you can find. He should be tiny and black or better yet dark blue.

The Dark Blue Sumatran Bantam rooster is bred to the Black Java hen. F1 daughters are all keepers. That F1 lineage " New-Sunda" is what everyone ready to collaborate and cooperate should be ready to trade and move amongst one another. The very best rooster- and that's totally subjective- he may be dark skinned or just have the best conformation- or the best comb or better yet the best temperament- whatever your choice is- regardless of how close he is to "cemani" is held back. That F1 "New-Sunda" rooster is bred back to his mother. All other roosters go into the freezer. Do not breed from them.
F2 Daughters of this backcross are also keepers but only breed from the darkest hens. Don't worry about their conformation just their pigmentation.

Ok so you're wondering what the male lineage will be used other than the F1 "uncle brother" rooster - -back to him in a moment-
The F1 "New-Sunda" females are to produce another lineage of F2 from which roosters will be bred to those darkest F2 hens produced through backcrossing.

When everyone is clear on that convoluted mess I'll continue.

So- there's your foundation- the mother stock.

check out his forum and read it.....a must....
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...ring-the-significance-of-cemani-mutations/110

 

[Chickens4lifee]

I am getting a breeding pair of Swedish black hens

 

[UGLYFOOT]

I have a question about a rooster I was given because he is not all black. The person who gave him to me bought an auction or two last summer on Ebay I think, from a California breeder or two. She had two or three roosters with color leakage, one or two had some white in the neck. Mine has copper in his neck. All other birds are solid black in feathers, with nice dark legs, skin etc. that you would typically find in purebreds. I am NOT using him as a breeder other than mixed with my assorted layers, just for fun. So my question is, has anyone had color other rhan white show up in their purebred lines? Either GFF, Astin or otherwise?

Edited to add pic..

Meet Mr Jafar