The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[cjwaldon]

I understand how you feel. I used to feel the same way. You cross a German Shepherd to a German Shepherd and all the offspring are still German Shepherds, even the white ones. However, dogs have pedigrees. It's quite easy to know the exact lineage of a dog. But with chickens, you have only the appearance of the bird to go by. You must look at the bird and decide with some level of comfort that the bird is indeed the breed it is represented to be. Therefor SOPs are important. They state what a particular breed is supposed to look like. And if that bird does not reasonably fall within the parameters of the SOP, it cannot be that breed.


How would you feel if insisted these are "Buff Ayam Cemani"?




or this as an albino Ayam Cemani?




We don't know the heritage of those birds. All we have is an SOP to compare the characteristics of those birds to while contemplating if they are indeed the breed they are represented to be. The second photo really happened. That bird was represented as an albino Ayam Cemani even though it has neither the characteristics of an Ayam Cemani nor the characteristics of an albino.

Remember APA Judge Leonard's post, "The APA does not care what genes they are carrying as long as they reproduce 50% correct....with the normal variations that any color pattern would have." and "At the qualifying meet the birds entered only need to look like the description given to the APA".

How does a white feathered bird fit the description of an Ayam Cemani? Don't get me wrong, they're beautiful birds! They're just not Ayam Cemani, at least not a variety that is in the SOP or being considered added to the SOP.

 

[cjwaldon]

Great post @Pyxis . I remember when people discovered their supposed pure Rhodebars purchased directly from GFF laid green eggs.

 

[birdman55]

Figured I would chime in. I had a svart hona just hatch like two weeks ago n thru it's growing part turned into fuzzy. Come to find out that the feed store didn't mix it the same as they normally do and it was missing some nutrients. Come to find out online that it is some sort of deficiency. And btw I'm hatching today again. And someone is buying close to 50 fibros for freezer camp. Most which are good quality breeders. Such a shame. But need to lighten up the feed bill.

 

[UGLYFOOT]

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I know that some of you may think I am going off topic again, but I am just using my Ameraucanas in this example (but the same goes for my BBS Orpingtons, BBS Marans and BBS Barnevelders too) therefore I still consider my all white feathered AC to be pure even though they may not be black.  However, if you only want people to talk about strictly 'black' feathered Ayam Cemani birds on this thread, then you have made it clear.

I don't think they are telling you that you cannot TALK about birds that don't meet the SOP. They would prefer that you not label said birds as Ayam Cemani. Call them by another name. Ayam Putih means White chicken how about that?

I remember talk waaaay back about how some people crossed early imports to increase egg production. Could these possibly be recessive genes popping up from that, the blue egg and white feathers??

 

[cressrb]

Yes, Uglyfoot, that is exactly the way I understand it.

 

[mistfall]

Still learning the SOP jargon for poultry -- what is a "forward stance" defined as? Or maybe an easier way to learn it-- what are some breeds with a forward stance, versus some other breeds that have a different stance.

(I can see of course that a Orpington has a different stance from a Sumatra, and both have a different stance than a Shamo, but I don't know how these stances are labeled in the fancy.)

 

[WalnutHill]

Still learning the SOP jargon for poultry -- what is a "forward stance" defined as? Or maybe an easier way to learn it-- what are some breeds with a forward stance, versus some other breeds that have a different stance.

(I can see of course that a Orpington has a different stance from a Sumatra, and both have a different stance than a Shamo, but I don't know how these stances are labeled in the fancy.)

I am sure there is a much more correct way to describe it than I did. To me, the stance of the gamier birds makes them look like they are about ready to step forward and go places, and that is what I call "forward". I hope to learn what it's really called.

If I were to make a very few classifications based on how a chicken looked and carried itself, they would range something like this:

Orpington/Australorp/Cochin/Brahma: Large, nearly as wide as long as tall, loose and fluffy feathers, horizontal back, legs scarcely visible

Rhode Island Red, Wyandotte: Smooth feathers, body longer than neck, horizontal back, legs visible when walking.

Leghorn, Cornish, Ayam Cemani: Smooth feathers, back held at a downward slope from neck to tail, legs visible when standing

Game: Long slim legs showing all the time, may carry wings out as if wearing a backpack, long neck, sloped back.

While we don't have an SOP for Ayam Cemani, I hope it falls between the Leghorn type and Game type. Nice tight feathers like a Cornish but with a slim, athletic build. Cornish have very "hard" feathers that lay close and tight to the body.

Dark Cornish hard feathers:

 

[dragonthehunter]

While we don't have an SOP for Ayam Cemani,

Its not the American Sop but its something

http://www.cemanifarms.com/2013/09/standard-of-ayam-cemani.html
And I couldn't find a copy of it but there is a dutch sop that most people use

 

[WalnutHill]

Its not the American Sop but its something

http://www.cemanifarms.com/2013/09/standard-of-ayam-cemani.html
And I couldn't find a copy of it but there is a dutch sop that most people use

Per that page it too is a draft SOP. The only thing I don't like there is the angled wings, and some Indonesian sites show birds so hard feathered they look like half naked black Cornish cross. I hope we do not go to that extreme, and at the same time that we don't end up with fluffy birds that don't have a light gamebird appearance.

 

[Aredhel]

Argh. I give up. After hatching a couple of batches of cemani eggs I conclude that there are no cemani hens. Just roos. Cemani eggs just spontaneously appear. I've raised ten roos (Or some very butch hens). Could this be an incubator temp issue? Like crocodilians temp of incubating eggs determines gender? Or do I have karmic odds and should go straight to Vegas?