The Dorking Breeders thread

[Yellow House Farm]

The is thread is established for the discussion of the Dorking within the framework of the American Poultry Association's Standard of Perfection.

The Dorking is one of, if not the single, oldest general purpose breed extant today. It is a fowl known for excellence but that has suffered in recent decades from a lack of breeder support.

Today the Dorking has very few breeders, whether in North America or oversees. It is in need of breeders willing to engage in APA/ABA-centric conversations that might hone and inform husbandry.

Please reserve conversations regarding non-standard color-projects and crosses for the Dorking thread located in the section entitled General Breed discussions & FAQs.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Wow, pretty intense. Well, when it comes down to it, we both work extra hours and run everything here. Phone messages don't always get communicated one to the other because we're juggling so much. I know in this current clime people are used to instant service and Wal-Mart quality 24 hours availability, but that's not the reality of the private breeder. Between a full time career, graduate school, and an extensive, high-volume hatching season I'm out straight.

If it is at all a consolation, I am seriously considering the discontinuation of shipping chicks at all for the very reason that many of the folks ordering do not understand that we do not do it to make money, which we do not, but rather to support the breeds. We make absolutely zero claims for our "customer service" department. Usually we just hit the pillow hoping we did the best we could.

Good luck in search. Please forgive the kind of person I am.

 

[Sydney Acres]

This is for yellow house farm. I am glad you actually do talk to people even if it is on here as I have left 5 messages for you to call me back about buying some and never even recieved accurtesy call to say wether you had none or not. Nice to know this is the type of person in my backyard

Oh dear! Falling Skies, as a "New Egg," it appears that no one has introduced you to the PM feature of BYC. PM stands for Private Message. It is used when you would like to say something privately to someone, either because it is not of public interest, or especially if it is something that is inappropriate to post on a public thread. You can access this feature by hovering your cursor over the recipient's name, and a list of options will automatically come up.

This thread is not for the public display of your dissatisfaction with a private breeder's policy. Did you think that anyone on this thread would take your side and ridicule YHF with you?? We all know what it's like to have a "TO DO" list with 200 things on it, and only 24 hours in a day.

While it is somewhat rude to give people advice that was not asked for, it appears that there are some important points in your quest for Dorkings that you have not yet discovered. If you want quality products, whether it's good animal stock or good food, you need patience. It takes time to prepare a meal from a top notch restaurant, but what you get won't taste like fast food. And it takes time to establish yourself with a good bird breeder, but what you get won't be hatchery quality. If you want hatchery service, buy from them. But if you want breeder quality birds, accept that real breeders don't have time to provide both top quality stock and top quality customer service departments. Pick one -- because nobody has both. And please learn to use the PM feature for private complaints.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Yeah, I realized that as soon as capavalleychick said it looked like a poult. Which, I didn't even know was the term for baby turkeys :/ .....and I'm supposed to be southern lol. The rest don't look like that one though. I *know* they're chicks. I plan on posting their picture as soon as I can get my little one to sleep. She always wants to kiss and hug on them, but they've traveled a long way in the past 2 days, so I don't want her handling them yet. Here's a picture of my Murray hatchery line Silver-Grey chicks I took on our way in the house earlier...hatched them myself

Here's a picture of the California dorkings. I was sent different color strains. What do you all think?

The general consensus in the Dorking community is that the breed, regardless of color, is in such disrepair that color is a low priority compared to other aspects of the bird. Different breeders have different opinions, but most people fall into one of two categories. Some people work with only one color, and try to perfect that color along with the the other unique features of the breed simultaneously. Other people get birds of any color, breed strictly for one feature at a time, then once they're happy with that feature they move on to the next, leaving color until last.

Well, on a thread that is specifically for breeding to the Standard, I would say that there's a 99.9% chance that culling these "California" chicks (now or later) is the best bet. They will make a mess out of the MMCM chicks that will take an untold number of seasons to fix.

There is the reality that the overwhelming majority of on-line folks in the "Dorking Community" are very new to chickens and are making up their rules as they go. Indeed, I can only think of one on-line Dorking breeder, a California-based breeder of SGs, who regularly shows and consults with judges and established breeders. Without this bulwark of support most people are just treading water and making messes. At first that might sound harsh, as if I were discounting peoples hopes and dreams, but actually it is the exact opposite. There are rules to this game, and the rare breeds need us to follow these rules if they are going to attain to and persist genetically in form and feather that is recognizably standard-bred Dorking. Having a field day with indiscriminate Duckwing patterns, without the guidance of a recognized APA/ABA breeder to help to steer selection in an appropriate manner, is a recipe for failure.

Form and feather should be happening at that same time. If you work for twenty years to fixe size and type to only then realize that its going to take another 20 to fix feather, the chances of long-term success for your breeding program--and the subsequent health of the breed--will be reduced substantially.

How ever this person is in CA shipping these chicks--he or she is in no shape or form a "breeder"--period. Indeed, there are very few true "breeders" of Dorkings in the country at all. Most would-be breeders are still beginners and are still deciding whether or not they're going to follow the rules of the game. At this point, it's looking like a bit of a toss up.

The mastery of most things is not about deciding what one thinks about something, but what one is willing to obey. Obedience is the beginning of all mastery. I know of only two people whose SGs I would want to try and only one person whose Reds I would try, and it is because they make concerted efforts to obey the rules and do things properly.

Fortunately, some long-established breeders have recently picked up the Whites; hopefully this will stimulate further interest and get these birds into a growing number of hands.

 

[3riverschick]

Here is a way to get started quality birds. I wrote this the other day for another BYC thread.
First decide how much room you have to breed chickens. You will need to raise at least 30 to 50 chicks a year from a top strain to find the best 3 to 5 to run on to the next year. If space is an issue, choose a bantam breed. The chick math works out that you can raise 2x as many birds in the same place if you pick bantams. But the eggs are smaller. Bantams are very popular right now so if you choose them, make sure you buy from a top strain. You want to do that anyway, regardless of the size you choose. Forget the hatcheries. You will not find foundation quality birds there and grading up your stock from hatchery birds takes a lot of time and money.
Start with the best. How do I ID a top strain? They have several hallmarks.
1. Is a veteran strain which has been around for years or decades. It takes time to stabilize a gene pool and winnow it to top form.
2. It is line-bred or a combination of line and some other breeding method. It takes "method" and wisdom to winnow the good from the bad and stabilize that gene pool. The breeder will "know" their stock and its genetic heritage.
3. Winning in quality competition. That means multiple wins at the big shows, not worried about showing to all comers. Not just state or country fair wins. .
Caveat: Unless the wins are notable ( Grand Champion and/or at a huge fair like the Texas State Fair ).
4. Over multiple generations. This means the breeder knows how to keep their winning gene pool stable and can also help teach you how.

Now these top veteran breeders usually do not sell eggs or chicks. Trying to start a foundation flock with egg or baby chicks is a rookie mistake. You want started birds which the breeder has had time to cull for quality at least once. Or retiring breeder birds which have a season or 2 of breeding left in them. Being sold because the breeder has used their virtues and has descendants so doesn't need them any more. They are not 2nd class birds. Tell the breeder you respect their strain and want to line-breed on it ( and then do it). You will pay more for the started or adult birds, but it will cost you way less than starting from eggs or baby chicks. Plus, you will redeem a lot of time and be on track to hatch eggs with the rest of us this Spring. Do not let "egg fever" get the best of you in this regard.

How do I find these top veteran breeders ( or someone who has very recently bought from these strains and has birds only 1 or 2 generations removed from the top strain? Start with the APA. Join and buy the year book. They also have back yearbooks for 5.00 each. Buy several of them. Start looking at show records for recurring wins in your chosen breed. Who is repeatedly taking the Breed or Championship of Group or even Show? If your breed also has an egg virtue like the Marans, check the online egg show results to see who is winning consistently. Then cross check that info to see which of the egg winners is also winning at the shows. This all takes research. But it will pay off in the end in time and money saved by choosing wisely. Join your chosen breed's parent Club and ask around there. The top strains are well known and they can help you find them.

When you find a breeder, listen to him/her. You are not wiser then they. Do not cross strains to found a flock. I cannot stress this strongly enough. Poultry are different from mammals and founding a flock on crossed strains can set you back years in regaining the stability of the gene pool in your flock. There are many sex-linked genes in poultry, not seen in mammals. Plus the color patterns are not just generally described by color , they are specifically written into their Standards. To win you need precise color, not a bird whose coloring "kinda" looks like the drawing in the Standard. Poultry races are founded on a very wide genetic base. This gives you a lot of diversity even in a linebred vintage strain. Plenty of diversity to tweak it to your artist's eye while still breeding to the APA SOP. If you ever decide to strain-cross, get ahold of your breeder and ask the which strains nick with yours. They will know and can guide you in that. After several generations of breeding you will get to know your chosen strain and can start to make some decisions for yourself and double check them with your chosen breeder. It just takes time.
Best Success,
Karen
One other thing. Don't be seduced by the "rare breed" Syndrome. There is a reason these breeds are rare and/or not accepted by APA. Too small a gene pool, too complicated (or unstable) of coloring, not enough production virtues, health problems from improper breeding methods. Not enough breeders interested in them because of flaws in the breed which leads to small scattered gene pools. Look at which breeds are winning at the shows. They are "mainline" breeds with storied histories ( including much writing to study) and a large enthusiastic following which freely shares info and stock. In a breed, small breeders can hold the line on quality, but it takes the big breeders hatching hundreds of chick each year to advance the breed as a whole.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

http://dorkingbreedersclub.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=29099581
http://.webs.codorkingbreedersclubm/apps/photos/photo?photoid=29099580

Have you seen these on the Dorking Breeders Club website?

Absolutely, but the place for that pattern is on Speckled Sussex. Those aren't Spangled Dorkings. Spangled is built on a BBR pattern with mahogany. Those are white skinned, red chickens with mottling, i.e. what a Speckled Sussex is.

Eventually, the reality with the vast majority of new, irresistible colors is that they exist already on another suitable fowl that would, were breeders to unite and work on the same breed and variety, become amazing. Instead, people want mottled Orpingtons and Dorking, and mottled/spangled Games and Sussex continue ever closer to oblivion. Unfortunately, the end result will be that we simply have nothing left of quality at all.

 

[capayvalleychick]

My name is Kim Consol and I am the Director for Region 2 of the Dorking Breeders Club. Region 2 includes the states of AK, AZ, CA, HI, ID, NV, OR, UT and WA.

Director's duties include helping to place meets throughout their region. The problem is that very few people with Dorkings exhibit them at shows. That's a shame. This historic breed deserves to have a presence beside all the other standard bred fowl that are exhibited for the public's pleasure and education.

Why aren't Dorkings seen at shows? Because the breed has been neglected by breeders who know how to breed to standard and bastardized by hatcheries and breeders who don't have the education or desire to preserve the breed true to it's type.

The Dorking breed has deteriorated into a trace of it's true regal form.

The first thing every Dorking owner needs to understand is that the Standard of Perfection is not just for people who show birds. The SOP is the tool with which we preserve the true Dorking breed for prosperity.

All those who appreciate the Dorking can help the breed in some way. Let's work together to give support and education to breeders who need it and offer camaraderie to all who have or revere Dorkings.

If interested, you can contact me at [email protected]
To join the Dorking Breeders Club, or find the director for your region:
http://dorkingbreedersclub.webs.com/

 

[capayvalleychick]

I agree with YHF's reply. I would keep the one with the beautiful smile in photo #6.

If there is one that you would like to keep, just use her as a layer and don't breed from her. You could order more from McMurray. Or, make an order from Duane Urch or Dick Horstman. I forgot where you are located.
Breeding from a runt will only give you small offspring.

 

[AFChick]

I'm curious about why you would be interested in a rare breed like Dorkings as meat birds. If you don't want to use Cornish crosses in favor of something more "natural" that you can breed and that lives a normal lifespan, then perhaps you should consider Bielefelders. They are autosexing and ready to process at 16-20 weeks, and the hens lay large, dark brown eggs. I know people who buy the excess cockerels from breeders as meat birds, or you can keep a flock and literally have dual purpose chickens but that don't require as long to get big enough to process. They are a little later than average to get to point of lay (8-10 months instead of 6-ish), but the eggs are big from the start. I just got into Bielefelders myself and they also have very nice temperaments. I'm expecting my first Dorking chicks in about 10 days, and the last thing I personally want to do with them is use them primarily for meat. Several friends are purchasing different colors of Dorkings, so hopefully we'll be able to have these ancient and unusual chickens for a long time.

I've always understood, from a livestock conservancy point of view, that the best way to preserve a rare breed of livestock or poultry is to breed and use them as they were intended. To name two breeds, as I do have several more, I have raised American Chinchilla rabbits for over a decade, Dorkings, just a little less. When I started with rare heritage breed preservation, no one in my area had either of these animals but now? I can point out over 20 people, without even trying , who raise American Chinchillas for meat, fur and also sale. As far as the Dorkings go in my area, I know of 3 breeders BUT we supply local "newbies" with chicks and eggs and all the support we can give them on taking the breed to the next level and how to be an ambassador for this wonderful breed.
My birds make weight and type is close- I don't care about colors or pinkisih - white - red earlobes (though those little details are coming along) meaning I am completing my barn first, so to speak. I mean, how can you take a heritage meat bird and not raise it for such? Is it just me, or does anyone else believe (or secretly think) that the many issues such as hatching problems and failure to thrive problems, etc., are generally brought on by the coveted, pampered stock which is treated as if it's "too fragile", never free ranged or allowed to be a chicken in any true sense of the word- I don't know, but what I DO know is I don't want to offend anyone or discourage anyone who has chosen the Dorking as their breed but they are , though actually not so much so now from what I have seen, so I should say WERE a true meat bird, one of the best and that's what I am working towards and will continue to work towards.

My line of thought has always been, if you don't use them for what they were originally intended, a top foraging, succulent, beautiful, robust meat bird, you're basically just "hoarding" them (for the pretty colors or show, etc.,) and hoarding them is certainly not doing them a favor by any means, actually it's a true injustice and disservice.

** please do not take ANYTHING I said above as having ANY tone other than compassion and a pleading for understanding as that is how it is intended. Think of me as your friendly neighborhood "Lorax" type

 

[RhodeRunner]

I'm curious about why you would be interested in a rare breed like Dorkings as meat birds.  If  you don't want to use Cornish crosses in favor of something more "natural" that you can breed and that lives a normal lifespan, then perhaps you should consider Bielefelders.  They are autosexing and ready to process at 16-20 weeks, and the hens lay large, dark brown eggs.  I know people who buy the excess cockerels from breeders as meat birds, or you can keep a flock and literally have dual purpose chickens but that don't require as long to get big enough to process.  They are a little later than average to get to point of lay (8-10 months instead of 6-ish), but the eggs are big from the start.  I just got into Bielefelders myself and they also have very nice temperaments.  I'm expecting my first Dorking chicks in about 10 days, and the last thing I personally want to do with them is use them primarily for meat.  Several friends are purchasing different colors of Dorkings, so hopefully we'll be able to have these ancient and unusual chickens for a long time.

I have been raising chickens for a long time, and never ate chicken that tasted as good as a Dorking. These are meat chickens, that have been breed for quality meat for years! People often believe they can't/shouldn't eat rare breeds. That does nothing but help keep them rare, and ensure fowl that should be culls stay alive and often breed.