The Heritage Rhode Island Red Site

[immyjay54]

Such helpful posts, Fred, Jimmy, cmom. I read through your 2012-2013 notes on the RIR you were trying out, Jimmy, and that was great info. I can see they become one's own birds over a few generations of selection, but comparing the hatchery birds to the pictures I see of you breeders' RIR, I don't think you could ever select for some of the good heritage traits (besides laying) starting with hatchery stock, right? But, you could select for laying (& health, vigor, temperament) starting with true RIR, assuming the laying isn't too low - which it sounds like it isn't usually. Although Jimmy's notes did mention birds that were very late to start laying and didn't lay much at all. That would be frustrating for me, if I ended up with expensive pretty birds that didn't lay well.

What you said is exactly what I was saying about the laying abilities. I do not show any of my birds and never plan on it. I was in the show world for over 30 years with different animals and really enjoyed it but if you can't jump into that with both feet and put out 100% of your effort to it then you might as well quit.

Yes there are some of these birds that aren't worth a diddly squat on the laying end and I think it is that some folks have crossed them up with the wrong birds. JMO Up until the last year, I was on here quite a lot and loved chatting with most that were on here then I just got away from spending as much time on the computer.

Fred,
I know what you mean by OUR, YOU and Your birds after figuring what to mate with what and then the breeding/raising them in each of our own ways.
Not meaning to stir up a bee's nest but I for one will always call them by their old original bloodline unless I cross two lines together then I will call them my own. Here is my reasoning on this whole thing. When I showed horses, Three Bars was one of the most sought after bloodlines in the pedigree. Almost every running horse that I showed had the Three Bars blood in the pedigree. There is good and bad traits in everything but I just liked that. I also don't think that any of our birds have pedigree's and that (I guess does make a difference.)
I just feel that all these old timers that worked so hard to get these particular lines started that IF we try and keep them going in the same direction should be mentioned. Again, JMO
It doesn't bother me one bit if others want to call them by their name etc. They are their birds and they can call them whatever they choose. When folks cross different lines such as Don Nelson then I would call them by Don Nelson line until I would ever cross them up then they would become my line but I would still mention what I crossed to get it.
I won't go into this anymore because it has been hashed around enough over the years by some. God forbid mentioning this in the RIRCA. Oh my.

Just waiting for warm spring weather to hit and be able to go out and sit and watch them pulling up the big worms out of the yards. ha,ha.

Keep up the good work. Gotta love these reds. Whatever anyone calls them they are still one sweet, lovable, personable bird.
Jimmy

 

[SallyinIndiana]

Such helpful posts, Fred, Jimmy, cmom. I read through your 2012-2013 notes on the RIR you were trying out, Jimmy, and that was great info. I can see they become one's own birds over a few generations of selection, but comparing the hatchery birds to the pictures I see of you breeders' RIR, I don't think you could ever select for some of the good heritage traits (besides laying) starting with hatchery stock, right? But, you could select for laying (& health, vigor, temperament) starting with true RIR, assuming the laying isn't too low - which it sounds like it isn't usually. Although Jimmy's notes did mention birds that were very late to start laying and didn't lay much at all. That would be frustrating for me, if I ended up with expensive pretty birds that didn't lay well.

From what I have noticed, buying a trio from a breeder at a show, does not cost that much more than raising up chicks from a hatchery. It does cost more but not hundreds and hundreds of dollars more. Consider a trio from the hatchery costs about $8-$10 as chicks, then they eat about 2 -3 bags of food between themselves in 6 months, and there is a bit of cost to brooding those chicks too. Over all I estimate that it costs at least $50 to raise up 3 hatchery RIR chicks. Its the cost of the coops, incubators, and other equipment that really adds up fast. Then the food does cost a bit more for a larger SOP bred RIR compared to the hatchery birds. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even if one was to spend over $100 on a trio, it would not be that much of loss compared to raising up a breed from the hatchery or farm store and deciding against them.

 

[Fred's Hens]

I don't want to steer this great conversation too far afield as we have a good focus going in helping someone understand that hatchery grade stuff could NEVER be bred, by themselves, to look as they should, if you had two lifetimes, it seems to me, and why bother? Waste of time and money. Go get you some good ones and get going!!!

There are great keepers of great birds. I totally agree on getting a quad or even 5 birds from reputable breeder and a good flock. Skip the eggs for sure. Shipping eggs and then trying to hatch a few? Jeepers, it is sometimes really tough and ends up costing more than if you'd just picked up some juveniles to get started.

The "source" lines of birds IS important, but not the be all and end all. You could easily get a quad of "Such and Such Famous Line" of Reds from a breeder in one state and another quad of that same "Such and Such Famous Line" from a different breeder in a state 1000 miles away. Here's what you may indeed discover, to your disappointment. One of those quads are vibrant, laying, mating and hatching fools while the other quad? Won't lay, won't hatch worth a tinker's you-know-what.

Been there, done that. Lots of guys at the Knoxville show were reasonably willing to speak pretty openly about this. Know your "Such and Such Famous Line" but also KNOW YOUR STRAIN.

Why is this so? Because while both breeders had kept the "Such and Such Famous Line", they had bred them for a goodly number of years to their own methods and their own eye. The birds from flock A, while sharing the same gene pool history as flock B, were now way, way different birds and that's just a fact.

Ask questions of your breeder. Direct, pointed questions. Make sure you go deeper than just "Such and Such Famous Line". Ask about vigor. Hatch rates. Fertility issues, egg laying, maturity rates, and any other question that is important to you.
That's what I'm talking about.

 

[RedRidge]

Maturity rates is a good point. I have Underwood and the best layers are those who lay the earliest. One of my 3 year old hems continue right on with 72-80% rate of lay through the winter with no lights. Yet I have another who is gorgeous, same age and quit laying all together during these short days. She began laying at 30 weeks, a full 4 weeks after the first hen. I can't help but wonder if POL isn't directly related to rate.

 

[CORNISH_MAN]

Anyone in Ky have any Heritage RIR's ? I am looking for a rooster for a project im working on and dont want to use hatchery stock.

 

[Fred's Hens]

Anyone in Ky have any Heritage RIR's ? I am looking for a rooster for a project im working on and dont want to use hatchery stock.

I messaged you privately.

 

[debp]

Thank you everyone. It is much clearer to me now what I would need to do to get some heritage birds. I know to avoid hatching eggs, not to just take a shot and hope some email source will be what I want. I also seems that one has to be motivated by the breed above all else, or it really doesn't make a lot of sense to go to the cost and trouble of getting heritage stock.

I really appreciate the work and passion that you who breed are putting into these lines. From what I've been learning here, though, it does surprise me and shake my sense of heritage stock that for someone like me, who wants to purchase and select for chickens that are healthy, easy to raise and productive layers, it might make more sense to get cheap hatchery stock and just select the best of them. My hatchery birds are healthy, lay very well so far (they are less than a year, tho), have good temperaments. I guess for me, the only way it would make sense to go the extra mile (and we are talking a 3 day trip to get to a poultry show from where I'm at) for heritage birds is if my hatchery stock fades at a very young age. If they burn out in a year and half or two, then I will be motivated to start working with heritage birds. It would be great if someday, productive heritage birds were more readily available to the backyard or small-scale flock owner who does care primarily about egg and/or meat production. It appears that at least some breeders are working in that direction, and I certainly will be if and when I decide to try the heritage birds.

Thanks again for sharing your experience, advice and perspectives. This is a good discussion.

 

[Fentress]

Thank you everyone. It is much clearer to me now what I would need to do to get some heritage birds. I know to avoid hatching eggs, not to just take a shot and hope some email source will be what I want. I also seems that one has to be motivated by the breed above all else, or it really doesn't make a lot of sense to go to the cost and trouble of getting heritage stock.

I really appreciate the work and passion that you who breed are putting into these lines. From what I've been learning here, though, it does surprise me and shake my sense of heritage stock that for someone like me, who wants to purchase and select for chickens that are healthy, easy to raise and productive layers, it might make more sense to get cheap hatchery stock and just select the best of them. My hatchery birds are healthy, lay very well so far (they are less than a year, tho), have good temperaments. I guess for me, the only way it would make sense to go the extra mile (and we are talking a 3 day trip to get to a poultry show from where I'm at) for heritage birds is if my hatchery stock fades at a very young age. If they burn out in a year and half or two, then I will be motivated to start working with heritage birds.  It would be great  if someday, productive heritage birds were more readily available to the backyard or small-scale flock owner who does care primarily about egg and/or meat production.  It appears that at least some breeders are working in that direction, and I certainly will be if and when I decide to try the heritage birds.

Thanks again for sharing your experience, advice and perspectives. This is a good discussion.

 

[Fentress]

My apologies for the miscue, still not use to the tablet.

If you want layers and don't mind people aggressive cocks, then there is no reason not to get hatchery stock. My complaint came when I culled my first bunch of K's, what a pathetic carcass. So if you eat your birds and want a true DP breed, then my opinion is, you need to look at standard bred poultry. Along the way, you might get sucked in to the history/culture of different poultry breeds and learn the basics how a properly bred bird is built. It's a curse, sort of, because now I see can't see past the pinched tails and nocked knees of my original flock.

 

[Fred's Hens]

My apologies for the miscue, still not use to the tablet.

If you want layers and don't mind people aggressive cocks, then there is no reason not to get hatchery stock. My complaint came when I culled my first bunch of K's, what a pathetic carcass. So if you eat your birds and want a true DP breed, then my opinion is, you need to look at standard bred poultry. Along the way, you might get sucked in to the history/culture of different poultry breeds and learn the basics how a properly bred bird is built. It's a curse, sort of, because now I see can't see past the pinched tails and nocked knees of my original flock.

You said a mouthful there.

No, most folks can be happy with hatchery stock, just the same way folks can eat McDonalds and be happy with the low price and ready availability. But once you've see truebred stock or raised some true bred stock, you are so right!!!! It is pretty much night and day like getting a tender, juicy, flamed broiled steak, done just right, with a nice baked potato and rich, creamy cole slaw and some slow baked, molasses rich baked beans on the side.

But again, McDonalds burgers are just fine for most folks.