The Heritage Rhode Island Red Site

[Fred's Hens]

I am gonna "answer" your questions this way and it may not be the way you might expect.

I am a HUGE supporter of the breed conservancy/ heritage conservancy movement. I commit a lot of time to those causes and do teaching, "show and tells" and so forth to support the efforts. I put my money where my mouth is and only feed so-called heritage birds on my homestead. Period. All that said just to be clear.

But let us all be clear what "preserving" "heritage birds" is all about. You cannot "preserve" a breed unless you actually breed. Sounds funny for me to say, no? You'd be surprised how many people who do not breed birds think that somehow they are "preserving" breeds by just keeping them in a coop out back. Ah…. no.

Second, after understanding you must actually BREED these "heritage" birds, you are required, as stated in the mission statements of the various breed conservatories, breed them to the Standard of Perfection established for the breed. We can only preserve a breed if we breed it to the Standard. Propigation is not breeding to the Standard and preserves little to nothing. You can only preserve a breed by making good and sure that the offspring are actually representative, highly representative of the actual breed. Golly, I hope this makes sense. Yes, there were and still are some breeders that made the breed their own, so to speak, to such a magnificent degree that good poultry folks can spot those birds a mile away and pick them out of a crowd. That kind of talent is rare and heaven sent gift.

If our pens are spiralling downward year after year and we're not culling properly and simply unaware of the faults that are taking over the birds in our barns, then we're "preserving" nothing. When we faithfully and intelligently do these magnificent birds justice, then we can take proper satisfaction that we did the breed well while they were on our watch. It's not about trophies. It's not about politics or marketing or "names" or anything else. It's about the breed.

OK, that's it. The sometime preacher in me needs to hush now and go back under my rock for a week or month or so. Hope it all helps in some small way. Bless you all.

 

[Beekissed]

I'll give a huge AMEN to that!

That's what I wanted to know and THEN some. Great post!

Should be a sticky somewhere, that's for sure....there's an article in there somewhere. Can't tell you how many times I've read about someone wanting to get heritage breeds to conserve the breed, but they have no idea what that entails...they just want to be able to say they are doing it.

Don't know that I'll ever make a mark on any line, but I am well aware that I'm standing on the shoulders of some hard working, incredibly dedicated breeders when it comes to WRs and the bird I've been gifted....I'm just teetering there hoping I don't mess it up. That's the most I can hope for right now...just to do no harm and do little tweaks internally all the while.

 

[3riverschick]

I would just like to add that those wishing to preserve these fine lines have to start somewhere and with selective breeding can produce some very fine birds (descendants of the lines) regardless of who started them. I also listen and learn. One of my favorite books is "The Call of the Hen" (Or the Science of the Selection and Breeding of Poultry) by Walter Hogan (1913), a poultryman. It is only available in reprint and the illustrations are rather poor but the information is great. Just my opinion.

Here is some good information about the different lines. http://jimspetsandpoultry.weebly.com/

Hi,
Here's the "Call of the Hen" free online reading. Plus some others I found on the subject of selection and culling:
The call of the hen : or, The science of selecting and breeding poultry for egg-production
by Walter Hogan and T.E. Quisenberry.
Published:
Kansas City, Mo. : American Poultry School, c1928. ( a later edition)
135 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924002775140;view=1up;seq=1

The art of internal culling.
Roth, Dennis.
Published:
Archbold, Ohio, I. B. Rogers, c1957.
68 p. illus. 23 cm.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.$b660140;view=1up;seq=5

Breeding and culling by head points
Steup, Howard Harold.
Mount Morris, Ill., Poultry tribune, c1928.
64 p. incl. illus., forms. 22 cm.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003133273;view=1up;seq=11

Every step in culling and breeding.
Foreman, E. C.
Battle Creek, Mich., Modern Poultry Breeder [c1922]
63 p.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo.31924003164955;q1=culling poultry

Profitable culling and selective flock breeding; complete details regarding the latest approved methods for culling, or the selection of layers, simple and practical instructions for securing permanent improvement in egg production in any flock, compiled by Homer W. Jackson and Grant M. Curtis.
Jackson, Homer W. b. 1870. and Curtis, Grant M.,
Quincy, Ill., Reliable Poultry Journal Pub. Co. [c1920]
118 p. illus. (part col.) diagrs. 30 cm.
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=loc.ark:/13960/t7kp8h18f;view=1up;seq=5

High egg production by individual hens, pens and flocks; a complete guide to profitable production of market eggs ... how to breed for increased productive capacity and how to feed and handle fowls in order to secure highest practicable egg yields, by Homer W. Jackson and Grant M. Curtis.
Jackson, Homer Wesley, 1870- and Curtis, Grant M.,
Quincy, Ill., Reliable Poultry Journal Publishing Co., c1922.
175, [1] p. col. front. (chart) illus. (incl. ports.) diagrs. 30 cm.
http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/006852070
Best,
Karen

 

[Fentress]

I'll give a huge AMEN to that!

That's what I wanted to know and THEN some. Great post!

Should be a sticky somewhere, that's for sure....there's an article in there somewhere. Can't tell you how many times I've read about someone wanting to get heritage breeds to conserve the breed, but they have no idea what that entails...they just want to be able to say they are doing it.

Don't know that I'll ever make a mark on any line, but I am well aware that I'm standing on the shoulders of some hard working, incredibly dedicated breeders when it comes to WRs and the bird I've been gifted....I'm just teetering there hoping I don't mess it up. That's the most I can hope for right now...just to do no harm and do little tweaks internally all the while.

I have wondered how finely tuned a good line of birds are and this year I think I have my answer. I got 3 separate lines (BR) from the same breeder and because they were from the same breeder, I thought I could mix them up with out any significant variance in quality. That is no what happened, so next year I will narrow my focus on the line I like best and go from there. Fortunately, I still have good birds to choose from. I am sure the breeder knows how to mix the lines better than myself, but for now I need to simplify.

 

[cmom]

Quote:
WOW, you sure did a lot of research and a lot of good reading.

 

[bluebirdnanny]

I stand chastised by my RIR breeding mentor! Fred did well to explain and I did a poor choice of wording. I am still learning. I just know my birds have Nelson in their background. The color, temperament and the angle of tail is closer to Standard than the Kittle based I have. Is that worded better Fred?
Point was trying to stipulate that different past breeders bred toward the standard each with their own eye. Underwood ancestry, Nelson ancestry and Kittle all have differences slightly and I have been advised by some that crossing those can have a "pop up" of an uncharacteristic trait.
So I try to breed Nelson ancestry to a Nelson for what I want to achieve. They are mine (which Fred and I are breeding partners) and I always give him first option at his choice for breeding best. He after all helped me with my first trio of "true" RIR.
I had birds given me as RIR but when delivered from my friend they didn't meet what I remembered the breed to be. I found since there was such a thing as Production Reds sold by hatcheries as RIR. I was disappointed to say the least. I posted asking what was wrong with the birds and was informed of the 'Production strain'.
The trio Fred set me up with were what I remembered. I want to preserve them.
Ok Fred NOW you can reword what I said into correct terminology! LOL

 

[Fred's Hens]

I stand chastised by my RIR breeding mentor! Fred did well to explain and I did a poor choice of wording. I am still learning. I just know my birds have Nelson in their background. The color, temperament and the angle of tail is closer to Standard than the Kittle based I have. Is that worded better Fred?
Point was trying to stipulate that different past breeders bred toward the standard each with their own eye. Underwood ancestry, Nelson ancestry and Kittle all have differences slightly and I have been advised by some that crossing those can have a "pop up" of an uncharacteristic trait.
So I try to breed Nelson ancestry to a Nelson for what I want to achieve. They are mine (which Fred and I are breeding partners) and I always give him first option at his choice for breeding best. He after all helped me with my first trio of "true" RIR.
I had birds given me as RIR but when delivered from my friend they didn't meet what I remembered the breed to be. I found since there was such a thing as Production Reds sold by hatcheries as RIR. I was disappointed to say the least. I posted asking what was wrong with the birds and was informed of the 'Production strain'.
The trio Fred set me up with were what I remembered. I want to preserve them.
Ok Fred NOW you can reword what I said into correct terminology! LOL

Hahaha I'd never chastise you, Nanny. You're a joy to work with because you love the birds, the real birds. You gotta care and you do.
You may not always know all the right terms but you know the real thing and your "eye" gets better every year.

 

[bluebirdnanny]

Yes many want to breed for the egg production increase as their goal as those links give the "how to" and THAT was how the "Production" (as called by breeders but sold by hatcheries) came about and confused so many people who thought what they purchased was the real thing. My friend THOUGHT she had RIR.

The goal of breeders of the "to Standard" RIR is to preserve the, how shall I say,???... "selectively bred away from standard in favor of egg production"

I prefer giving up a few eggs if it comes to that for a longer lived, longer laying properly bred bird.

My "true" flock members as Fred called them are MUCH more gentle tempered as I remember from Grandmas farm. Those productions I had were NOT as gentle and just not as hardy as my flock now.

Now I have probably offended some and am sorry if so but that is my answer as to why I like my particular ancestry line descendants!! That was a politically correct MOUTHFUL!!

 

[cmom]

Yes many want to breed for the egg production increase as their goal as those links give the "how to" and THAT was how the "Production" (as called by breeders but sold by hatcheries) came about and confused so many people who thought what they purchased was the real thing. My friend THOUGHT she had RIR.

The goal of breeders of the "to Standard" RIR is to preserve the, how shall I say,???... "selectively bred away from standard in favor of egg production"

I prefer giving up a few eggs if it comes to that for a longer lived, longer laying properly bred bird.

My "true" flock members as Fred called them are MUCH more gentle tempered as I remember from Grandmas farm. Those productions I had were NOT as gentle and just not as hardy as my flock now.

Now I have probably offended some and am sorry if so but that is my answer as to why I like my particular ancestry line descendants!! That was a politically correct MOUTHFUL!!

I agree. Most people want birds for eggs and could care less about the breeds. Some do want birds that lay well and are pretty like yard ornaments or like a colorful basket of eggs which is fine. I love my particular ancestry line descendants too.

 

[smarsh]

I agree. Most people want birds for eggs and could care less about the breeds. Some do want birds that lay well and are pretty like yard ornaments or like a colorful basket of eggs which is fine. I love my particular ancestry line descendants too.

I kind of agree too, and lets face it, the whole point of domestication was to the end of use. And the vast majority do not show. I have some problem with the breeding to standard at the detriment of the chicken being useful otherwise. The inbreeding that is necessary for this doesn't create a stronger longer lived line. I am a middle of the road sort of person that loves the beauty of hen that best resembles what we have determined to be the standard of perfection, but really have no use for the bird myself if it isn't productive to some point. I love the docile nature of the reds I have, the fact that they are under foot when I am doing things that would put some birds to flight, but of course that is the more natural reaction than the assumption that I am not about to step on them. My line is also laying rather well which is the only way they are existing in my backyard. yard ornaments laying other ornaments.