Treatment for Peahen with possible infection

[CrazyBirdLady7]

I have a two and a half year old peahen, Paisley, who lives indoors. Several weeks ago, I noticed that her poo was unusually stinky. I didn't think much of it until a couple weeks ago as every poo was very watery. Her eating/drinking and activity level were normal up until last week. I also noticed that she was eating more than she was pooping, i.e. more was going in than was coming out. Paisley had a fungal infection a few months ago and had displayed similar behavior as she is now, so I started the same treatment plan that had healed her last time; oil of oregano w/ olive oil and concentrated garlic liquid with a little greek yogurt, very small amounts injected orally 4-5 times a day. When she had the fungal infection, this method seemed to do the trick. This time around it has not been as effective. During all of this, I had attempted to start her routine deworming and was using Levasole (which I hadn't used in the past). Her poops kept getting more and more watery so I stopped that after a couple days. That's when I started the natural remedies. Up until this week, we noticed that her food wasn't digesting properly, as we would see pieces of greens and seeds pass through. I assumed this was the result of a sour crop, however, her crop doesn't seem any different than normal. She feels like she's a bit on the skinny side but other than that, nothing feels abnormal. Like she did toward the end of her fungal infection, she's been holding her tail up higher than normal, like something's bothering her vent, but upon inspection, all seems to be fine. She has been drinking excessively and today has only wanted to eat wax worms. After she ate a bunch of wax worms, she started milling around kind of picking at her but not really eating anything. Her poos today have been almost all watery liquid with no substance until she ate the wax worms (which perked her up quite a bit). I have attached some poo pics and a pic of her stance. The poo pic on the carpet was mostly water but had more too it than this morning. Shortly after that, she had two very stinky cecal poos. Kinda strange as far as timing as normally her cecal poos are like clockwork, 8-9am and 5-6pm. I started her back on Fenbendezole today in her water and haven't given her any of the oregano/garlic concoction since this morning.
I know my story is very detailed but does anyone have any suggestions other than going to the vet? I seem to know more about peafowl than any vet in my area and tend to get more help from backyard chickens than anywhere else. I have an antibiotic, duramyacin-10. Should I try that or get something else? Please help my poor little Paisley! She is my whole world!

 

[KsKingBee]

It really depends on what you are needing to treat for as to what drug and dosage you need to administer.

When treating for round worms or cecal worms with Safeguard a single day dosage of two ml per adult peahen or three ml per adult peacock given orally and repeated in ten days is sufficient. If however you are trying to get all types of worms it is a five-day treatment and repeated in ten days. Documentation is posted on the previous page.

The problem you are facing is that you don't know what you need to treat for. You could rule out a lot of things with a fecal exam.

 

[casportpony]

I appreciate everyone's help. I'm getting a bit confused and frustrated with the most recent threads about who's advice we can and cannot trust. If we can just focus on my bird and her specific issue, I think that will be the most helpful for me and others who may run into the same problem. I'll try to respond to the questions that were directed to me. I was advised by a bird expert friend that she had a fungal infection a few months ago cuz she had eaten some dirt from a plant that I had brought in from outside. I noticed after the fact that the dirt had mold on it which she most likely ingested. Plus, she hadn't been outside in a couple months. And yes, Kathy, this is the same bird that was sick last year. She is no where near as sick now as she was back then. I am one of those foolish ppl that mixed the 3 cc safeguard with a gallon of water. Are you saying I can give this to her straight? Do I give to her once a day for 5 days? I have no problem using a syringe to administer meds orally. If I were to purchase a different antibiotic, what should I get and what is the dosing amount and frequency? I would prefer NOT having to inject her with a needle if possible.

Let's start over...

When you took her to the vet last year, how much did she weigh?

My almost 2 year old, very domesticated peahen hasn't eaten or drank anything on her own in over 24 hours. I took her to a vet last night who was able to give her some IV fluids and an Ivomec injection. We started her on a 3 day treatment for a bacterial infection too. This was all at about 7pm last night and as of 7am this morning I hadn't seen any improvement. I've been able to get her to swallow some peas and carrots and have been dipping her beak in her water dish to entice her to drink. She shows a little interest in her food but when she tries to eat she starts shaking her head like she's trying to shake something off of her beak. She's been extra sensitive about things getting on her beak, especially water, and wants to immediately wipe it off. The vet swabbed her throat and examined it but there's nothing lodged, no visible worms, no mucus. Her poop is white and clear, very liquid and mucus like. She did have some substantial "stinky poops" at the vet but could have been due to all the poking and prodding. I keep my bird inside most of the time, especially at night, but since it's been nice, I've kept her outside in her pen during the day. Shortly after I started doing that is when she stopped eating and started acting weird. I hadn't wormed her in several months either. So the vet thinks we might be looking at gapeworm, or a combo of bacterial infection spurred by a parasite? Not exactly sure. So I'm looking for advice, tips, ideas, because I am very attached to this bird and will be devastated if I loose her Also, does anyone know how long it should take the meds to kick in or when I should start seeing improvement if they're working? Thanks!

Paisley did so well at the vet last night! They were able to do a fecal float and found a microscopic round worm larve.
They even let me look at it through the microscope! Creepy looking things!
Anyway, the vet thinks that she just wasn't on a long enough dose of the SMZ and dewormer.
So, meds round two: 3 days Pancure oral once daily and 0.5cc SMZ orally twice daily for ten days.
Paisley seems to be in good spirits and is slowly getting her normal appetite back.
Still seeing runny urate poo but I'm hoping that will start to change as the meds take effect and she starts to eat more.
Thanks to all who have helped me through this with their advice and support

All sick birds will be dehydrated, so that's probably why that vet gave her fluids, though I suspect he gave them under the skin, not in the vein? The first vet gave Ivomec (ivermectin), but the second vet found live larvae. Unclear if the Ivomec didn't work, or if more eggs hatched. Second vet had had you give Panacur, which is the exact same thing as Safeguard, both are fenbendazole. How much did he have you give?

So why did you decide to give the Levasole (levamisole) instead of Safeguard or Panacur? I don't know much about levamisole, but I think it supposed to be used cautiously in ill birds. Then why did you decide to use Safeguard in the water instead of orally? Did you just not know that Safeguard and Panacur are the same?

Regarding the fungal infection... no way to know for sure if it was or wasn't without proper testing. \

If I were you and could afford it, I would go see vet number 2 again. Pay for exam, fecal float and gram stain. Should cost about $100. Feed stores will not have the better drugs, and I don't think you have time to order them.

If you don't have a kitchen scale, go buy one and weigh her. If she looses 5% of her weight. it's time to tube feed.

-Kathy

 

[casportpony]

How to Check for a Stuck Egg

Put on a glove and water based lube and very gently insert you finger in the vent. If an egg is there you will feel it at about an inch in. Here are some pictures to help you visualize where the egg should be:





If you find a stuck egg and the hen is still pooping, tube warmed fluids at 10 ml per pound, wait 60-90 minutes, then tube more fluids and give calcium gluconate at 50mg per pound. Place hen in a steam filled bathroom and let the fluids and calcium do their magic.

-Kathy

 

[Birdrain92]

I have a two and a half year old peahen, Paisley, who lives indoors. Several weeks ago, I noticed that her poo was unusually stinky. I didn't think much of it until a couple weeks ago as every poo was very watery. Her eating/drinking and activity level were normal up until last week. I also noticed that she was eating more than she was pooping, i.e. more was going in than was coming out. Paisley had a fungal infection a few months ago and had displayed similar behavior as she is now, so I started the same treatment plan that had healed her last time; oil of oregano w/ olive oil and concentrated garlic liquid with a little greek yogurt, very small amounts injected orally 4-5 times a day. When she had the fungal infection, this method seemed to do the trick. This time around it has not been as effective. During all of this, I had attempted to start her routine deworming and was using Levasole (which I hadn't used in the past). Her poops kept getting more and more watery so I stopped that after a couple days. That's when I started the natural remedies. Up until this week, we noticed that her food wasn't digesting properly, as we would see pieces of greens and seeds pass through. I assumed this was the result of a sour crop, however, her crop doesn't seem any different than normal. She feels like she's a bit on the skinny side but other than that, nothing feels abnormal. Like she did toward the end of her fungal infection, she's been holding her tail up higher than normal, like something's bothering her vent, but upon inspection, all seems to be fine. She has been drinking excessively and today has only wanted to eat wax worms. After she ate a bunch of wax worms, she started milling around kind of picking at her but not really eating anything. Her poos today have been almost all watery liquid with no substance until she ate the wax worms (which perked her up quite a bit). I have attached some poo pics and a pic of her stance. The poo pic on the carpet was mostly water but had more too it than this morning. Shortly after that, she had two very stinky cecal poos. Kinda strange as far as timing as normally her cecal poos are like clockwork, 8-9am and 5-6pm. I started her back on Fenbendezole today in her water and haven't given her any of the oregano/garlic concoction since this morning.
I know my story is very detailed but does anyone have any suggestions other than going to the vet? I seem to know more about peafowl than any vet in my area and tend to get more help from backyard chickens than anywhere else. I have an antibiotic, duramyacin-10. Should I try that or get something else? Please help my poor little Paisley! She is my whole world!

In my opinion it almost looks like she's going to lay an egg. How old is she? Make sure she has access to a calcium source. I have a couple questions. Is she indoors all the time? Do you give her grit or gravel? If not I would advise giving her some gravel, small rocks, some sand, or grit when you can. It can help with digestion. Just for future reference don't put any medicine or wormer in her water. The only time you should mix medicine and wormer in water is when it says to in the instructions or when the medicine says Water Soluble. If it doesn't contain either or don't mix them with water. Doesn't do much good at all. How long has she been like that? Has she laid an egg before? I would follow Kathy's advice. It's a good way to check to see if she's egg bound. If there's an egg it's not that far from the vent and it will be fairly hard. She could lay it any day. Usually though with egg bound they look a little worse but better safe than sorry. If she's laying already check in corners that could be possible nesting spots. Hens like to choose corners. That much liquid in their poop is not normal. Could be mild stress or stress from laying. Like a natural lubricant produced by the body to try and pass the egg. It's important that when laying that they have access to lots of water.

 

[Garden Peas]

Thanks everyone for the replies and advice. I know she's not egg bound as I have examined her and she didn't start laying until August last year. She has unlimited access to oyster shell and gets plenty of fresh fruit/veggies/herbs. Her normal food is a layer feed for chickens, which she normally enjoys but since she's a house pet, she always wants to check out what I'm eating. She's been eating a lot of kale and grapes lately. I treat her for worms twice a year as she does go outside occasionally. She likes to take dirt baths in my rose garden so maybe she picked up something there? When I created this thread, she wasn't pooping anything significant for a fecal float. Since starting the safeguard this morning, she has gotten her appetite back and poos are looking more normal and less watery. I'm hoping things are under control now but wondering what steps I can take to prevent this from happening again. Should I be giving her a different feed? The vet is the one who suggested the layer crumble. Does she need a "scratch" feed outside of the oyster shell?

1. "Scratch" is not related to oyster shell. Scratch is a blend of whole seeds and cracked corn. Good for a treat and entertainment for poultry and to add carbs in winter. Can't be properly digested without grit.

2. "Grit" is essential. It is small rocks, tiny pebbles, tiny gravel used by the bird's digestive system to grind up food. Without grit, a bird can become impacted and die. Indoor birds must also have grit. Grit is NOT the same as oyster shell. Commercial poultry grit is sold at feed stores and Tractor Supply. Sometimes it is very fine granite gravel. Free range birds can find their own grit. Not necessarily enough natural grit available in a rose garden, would depend on the soil and what the bird could find. She HAS to have grit, if she isn't getting any now, buy some ASAP.

3. "Oyster shell" is a supplemental calcium source made from pulverized oyster shells. It is NOT the same as grit. An adequate supply of calcium is necessary for egg laying, but excess shell is not good either. Most "laying" feeds already contain supplemental calcium. Keep an eye on egg shells -- observe whether they are too thin, or too thick, perhaps even with excess calcium deposits on them. Insufficient calcium can lead to egg binding.

4. Too much oregano can irritate the intestinal tract.

5. The month she started laying last year (when she was two) is not necessarily any indication when she will start laying this year. Last year, she was two, when most hens first begin to lay, and often lay for an abbreviated period. This year, she is likely to lay earlier and longer, as she settles into an adult pattern. She needs a comfy place to hang out and feel safe, without intrusion or disturbance. Peahens normally lay in the evening.

6. That photo is a nearly perfect photo of a hen getting ready to lay an egg -- the way she is holding her wings, the way she is holding her tail feathers and hind end... the egg may not be where you can feel it, but she really looks to me as though she has an egg on the way. Also notice that she has her neck feathers roughed out, but her body feathers are smooth. She isn't puffed out through the body, she isn't hunched over or hunched up, she just looks like she needs to shove an egg out her vent sometime in the near future. She may not be egg bound -- she may just be fine and working on getting the egg through her system. Particularly if she is just starting up for the season.

7. How did you figure out it was a fungal infection earlier?

8. Has she ever been treated with metronidazole or any treatment for blackhead? Does she eat garden worms?

9. I'm concerned the natural remedies may be taking a toll. Perhaps better to slow down and get a clear idea of what is going on, and then treat as necessary with a clear view of the issues. Can you find any vet with avian experience? Even a non-pea experienced avian vet will have a lot of transferrable bird health knowledge.

 

[Garden Peas]

Gentle peapeople, I have been incredibly grateful for all the info that is out there, and my first peachicks would never have hatched, let alone survived to reproduce, if it weren't for the efforts by folks like the bigger breeders, the oldtimers and the UPA folks (some now "former UPA folks"), who took the time to create websites, post photos and knowledge articles, chat about peas and yes, sometimes go out on a limb and venture guesses.

I had zero -- ZERO -- local resources and was working with eggs laid in a pile of my alfalfa by a feral hen and then abandoned in the heat during an incredibly hot spell. I knew nothing. I knew no one. I was in a small town with no one who could help me.

The contributions those folks made got me through a very difficult first hatching. I scoured every internet resource I could find.

Over time, I learned that pea knowledge is still evolving, both in genetics and in husbandry. Ideas about medical care vary from expert to expert, and region to region. It is a complicated field, and not static -- things change with time.

I consider it my responsibility to learn. I keep looking, I keep reading. Sometimes information conflicts. Who's right? Who's wrong? It's not always so clear. It's my job to try to sort it out and keep my birds healthy. Sometimes there's more than one way which will work. Sometimes there is no "best" way. Sometimes what works for one person does not work for another. I had nothing hatch last year. This year I am having a good hatch. I'd like to think it's the changes I've made -- some subtle, some a bit innovative, some that would be common sense to some people and crazy to others, I bet. But without the back and forth, give and take and freely proffered advice, I'd never have hatched my first pea, much less these.

My sense is simply gratitude for what has been freely shared.

Happy Easter

(My job at this moment is to go clean the brooders and re-arrange the peababies...)

 

[Birdrain92]

And the worst most often quoted is from Hopkins peafowl web site. If you were on FB and followed your hero Peacockman, you would see the picture of the medication page all the time. But, hey, Hopkins has been a major producer of peafowl for years... right?

They always quote him. I agree I don't like to say bad things on other peafowl breeders. Especially larger, more experienced breeders. Parts of that website shoot up flags. The one that shoots up red flags is the Green peafowl area.

I never want to sau anything bad about a fellow pea person, but that page is full of errors.

-Kathy

X2. There are just things that do need to be addressed. We just express our concerns. Such as when reading the wormer part with mixing it in water. I feel like the one thing I've been repeating the most lately is that the only time someone should put medicine in water is when it says it in the instructions or if it says water soluble. Putting a wormer in a treat or something they will devour works better than water. Even though orally is the best but not all can do it. That's why I would advise if they can't do it orally put the recommended dosage in something they will eat quickly. There's another part that shoots up red flags to me on that site and that's the Greens.

Gentle peapeople, I have been incredibly grateful for all the info that is out there, and my first peachicks would never have hatched, let alone survived to reproduce, if it weren't for the efforts by folks like the bigger breeders, the oldtimers and the UPA folks (some now "former UPA folks"), who took the time to create websites, post photos and knowledge articles, chat about peas and yes, sometimes go out on a limb and venture guesses.

I had zero -- ZERO -- local resources and was working with eggs laid in a pile of my alfalfa by a feral hen and then abandoned in the heat during an incredibly hot spell. I knew nothing. I knew no one. I was in a small town with no one who could help me.

The contributions those folks made got me through a very difficult first hatching. I scoured every internet resource I could find.

Over time, I learned that pea knowledge is still evolving, both in genetics and in husbandry. Ideas about medical care vary from expert to expert, and region to region. It is a complicated field, and not static -- things change with time.

I consider it my responsibility to learn. I keep looking, I keep reading. Sometimes information conflicts. Who's right? Who's wrong? It's not always so clear. It's my job to try to sort it out and keep my birds healthy. Sometimes there's more than one way which will work. Sometimes there is no "best" way. Sometimes what works for one person does not work for another. I had nothing hatch last year. This year I am having a good hatch. I'd like to think it's the changes I've made -- some subtle, some a bit innovative, some that would be common sense to some people and crazy to others, I bet. But without the back and forth, give and take and freely proffered advice, I'd never have hatched my first pea, much less these.

My sense is simply gratitude for what has been freely shared.

Happy Easter

(My job at this moment is to go clean the brooders and re-arrange the peababies...)

We understand that there are differences between one breeder to another. It's even better when they share what works. It's best, in my opinion, to take some advice from a couple sources and test what works. I always find it amazing and important that we're willing to share info for free.

 

[Garden Peas]

I appreciate everyone's help. I'm getting a bit confused and frustrated with the most recent threads about who's advice we can and cannot trust. If we can just focus on my bird and her specific issue, I think that will be the most helpful for me and others who may run into the same problem. I'll try to respond to the questions that were directed to me. I was advised by a bird expert friend that she had a fungal infection a few months ago cuz she had eaten some dirt from a plant that I had brought in from outside. I noticed after the fact that the dirt had mold on it which she most likely ingested. Plus, she hadn't been outside in a couple months. And yes, Kathy, this is the same bird that was sick last year. She is no where near as sick now as she was back then. I am one of those foolish ppl that mixed the 3 cc safeguard with a gallon of water. Are you saying I can give this to her straight? Do I give to her once a day for 5 days? I have no problem using a syringe to administer meds orally. If I were to purchase a different antibiotic, what should I get and what is the dosing amount and frequency? I would prefer NOT having to inject her with a needle if possible.

Ok, so the fact is, you don't actually know whether it was a fungal infection last year. There's no lab work, and no vet opinion, and a suspicion the hen ate dirt and got sick from it. Eating dirt (even moldy dirt) is not necessarily going to give a bird a fungal infection -- no idea how your expert came to the conclusion that it was. Peas dig around in the dirt and take sunbaths in the dirt and roll in the dirt to rid themselves of parasites and actually live in pens with dirt floors... and don't routinely get fungal infections. Before I believed a bird had a fungal infection, I'd want vet confirmation and lab work. And a darned good explanation.

Now two things that are much more frequently associated with dirt are coccidia and blackhead. Coccidia can be treated with amprolium or sulmet, blackhead gets treated with metronidazole, which will kill the protozoa that cause blackhead and which live inside earthworms and other icky places. Different illnesses, treated with different meds. Parasitic worms get treated with Safeguard and Valbazen and a few other wormers (some more effective than others), again, DIFFERENT ILLNESSES NEED DIFFERENT MEDS!

I strongly suggest that you have a vet look at this bird, that you run fecal samples (which can pick up various parasites) and you not just randomly treat hoping to "hit" whatever it is. The multiple doses per day oregano oil & garlic stuff could make the bird sick or cause organ damage -- herbal remedies are NOT always safe, and it is quite possible to overdo them. All the normal probiotics in the bird's system may have been knocked out with the garlic/oregano cocktail, which can lead to watery or loose poo all by itself, as well as interfere with digestion.

I'm still worrying about whether this bird has been getting actual grit in her diet or not? It sounds as though she may only have gotten oyster shell, which is not adequate for grinding and digesting food. Those totally undigested "wax worms" (whatever the heck those are???) convinced me that there is not proper digestion going on. The range of conditions which can cause that is enormous, from no longer having any gut bacteria to not enough grit in the diet, to damaged gut function from parasites or protozoa. I'm not sure whether the bird is even sick, or whether the treatments are making the bird sick. I'm still wondering if she's getting herself into laying condition and looks "sick" because it's a different posture.

It's all very well and good to worm the bird -- Safeguard is generally safe. She can have 2 ml of Safeguard liquid spread on bits of bread, once a day for 5 days, repeated (as explained by earlier folks). But at this point, if you believe the bird is ill, take it to the vet and explain the whole story AND be sure to tell the vet about ALL the remedies, including the herbal ones, so the vet can give you his or her best advice.

Good luck.

 

[thndrdancr]

While I am all for oregano oil, several times a day seems a bit excessive. I do use it but no more than once time a day and usually only once every 3 months or so.
It can be hard of the liver if done too frequently.

Now that being said, I agree with Garden Peas. She looks like she is ready to lay or might be eggboundmaybe. Are you making sure she gets plenty of calcium for egg production? It definitely looks like she should be eating more. Watery poops are not good. I usually just feed mine chicken crumbles supplemented with a lot of protein, fruits and veggies. She also needs grit, if she is inside is she getting enough grit to grind her food up?

Sorry she is ill, those are the things right off top of my head.