What do you think of these ingredients?

[egghound]

Hi Folks. I would like to get your opinions on the pros and cons of the stuff in my chicken feed.

I'm trying to compare the ingredients of two different feeds. Both are starter/grower type feeds. One made by Nutrena and the other by a mill out of Oklahoma called Big V Feeds. I know the list of Ingredients can sometime be purposefully encoded to sound different to the reader than what they really are, but I thought perhaps you can tell me what you think about each. I've also listed a few other question at the end of this post:

Nutrena brand Chick Starter Grower:
Grain Products, Plant Protein Products, Processed Grain By-Products, Roughage Products.....

Big V Starter Grower:
Ground Yellow Corn, Soybean Meal, Wheat Middlings, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Animal Protein Products.....

How do these ingredients compare in your opinion?
What can each item on the lists possibly include or not include?
The Big V Feed brand lists animal protein as an ingredient. This is good right?

 

[GreenMountainEric]

The Nutrena feed is most likely using the same ingredients as the Big V feed. Nutrena just uses generalized terms. I can tell you for certain, that the nutrena feed does have Corn, Soybean meal, wheat midds, and alfalfa meal in it. Although, it most likely does not have animal protein products in it. A large amount of feed mills have stopped using meat and bone meals in most feeds (except fish products).

The feeding of animal protein products was what started mad cow desease, and also accounts for a lot of other food bourn illnesses. The protein is good for a chickens diet, but using it, carries a small amount of risk. Even though chickens do well on animal protein products, they do not need them in order to be healthy. A properly balanced ration, without animal protein products, can sustain optimal health. The only reason that most feed companies use animal protein products, is because they are cheaper.

 

[egghound]

The Nutrena feed is most likely using the same ingredients as the Big V feed. Nutrena just uses generalized terms. I can tell you for certain, that the nutrena feed does have Corn, Soybean meal, wheat midds, and alfalfa meal in it. Although, it most likely does not have animal protein products in it. A large amount of feed mills have stopped using meat and bone meals in most feeds (except fish products).

The feeding of animal protein products was what started mad cow desease, and also accounts for a lot of other food bourn illnesses. The protein is good for a chickens diet, but using it, carries a small amount of risk. Even though chickens do well on animal protein products, they do not need them in order to be healthy. A properly balanced ration, without animal protein products, can sustain optimal health. The only reason that most feed companies use animal protein products, is because they are cheaper.

I kind of thought both products had similar ingredients regardless of what they call it. The one think I liked about the Big V Feed products is that their layer pellets are smaller and more uniform in size, I Nutrena layer had some larger pieces close to 1/2" in size. didn't realize mad cow was still a concern. Also, I thought animal protein would be more expensive.

 

[GreenMountainEric]

I kind of thought both products had similar ingredients regardless of what they call it. The one think I liked about the Big V Feed products is that their layer pellets are smaller and more uniform in size, I Nutrena layer had some larger pieces close to 1/2" in size. didn't realize mad cow was still a concern. Also, I thought animal protein would be more expensive.

It is not so much that mad cow is still a problem. The FDA no longer allows mammalian protein products in feed (which was what caused mad cow). The concern is, that someday, poultry byproducts might cause something similar. Mad cow started because of feeding cows to cows, there is some worry that eventually the same sort of thing will happen by feeding chicken to chickens.

Partical size is very important for a chickens diet. If they seem to prefer the Big V pellet, they will probably do better on it.....

 

[Chris09]

I wasn't going to post but,

Mad Cow Disease/ Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE) had to do more with feeding contaminated [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Bovine products back to Bovines.
Keep in mind Bovines are Herbivores and Chickens are Omnivores. [/FONT]
Chickens can not get mad cow disease, scrapie or a poultry form of this disease.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Most of the feed mfg's that use Animal proteins in their mix use either Fish Meal or Porcine Meat Meal but you may find one or two that use Feather Meal, or Whey.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]IMO Animal Proteins are not cheaper than Plant Proteins, Soy Bean Meal here runs .20 a pound and I have yet found any Animal Protein Meal cheaper than that. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chris[/FONT]

 

[GreenMountainEric]

Sorry, Chris.... You are right about BSE, but my point was that it went on for years before adverse effects showed up. It is not known that this will never happen with poultry.... There is certainly risk. You could have had the same argument about bovines 10 years ago.

Also, most feed companies DO NOT use porcine meat meal. It is FDA regulated for feed facilities that manufacture any bovine feeds. Those regulations extend to all mammalian products. Fish meal is certainly used, but fish meal is not a "Animal protein product". Poultry Meal is used, because poultry are not mammals. I do not know a single feed company that uses anything but poultry meal now. Including Purina, Nutrina, and Blue seal. Our vendors don't even offer anything else anymore.


Currently, "Advantage+", which is the most common poultry meat and bone meal, costs only slightly more than Amino+ soybean meal, and the meat and bone meal is 50% higher in crude protein. There is a definite cost advantage, and in the 10 years that I used it, it was never cheaper to formulate only using soy for protein....

 

[Chris09]

Sorry, Chris.... You are right about BSE, but my point was that it went on for years before adverse effects showed up. It is not known that this will never happen with poultry.... There is certainly risk. You could have had the same argument about bovines 10 years ago.

Also, most feed companies DO NOT use porcine meat meal. It is FDA regulated for feed facilities that manufacture any bovine feeds. Those regulations extend to all mammalian products. Fish meal is certainly used, but fish meal is not a "Animal protein product". Poultry Meal is used, because poultry are not mammals. I do not know a single feed company that uses anything but poultry meal now. Including Purina, Nutrina, and Blue seal. Our vendors don't even offer anything else anymore.


Currently, "Advantage+", which is the most common poultry meat and bone meal, costs only slightly more than Amino+ soybean meal, and the meat and bone meal is 50% higher in crude protein. There is a definite cost advantage, and in the 10 years that I used it, it was never cheaper to formulate only using soy for protein....

Quote: As for Porcine Meat Meal (Pork) -
Buckeye Nutrition -- http://www.buckeyenutrition.com/media/137741/40_pct_poultry concentrate.pdf

Quote:


If Fishmeal is not a Animal Protein Meal then what is it then?
Here is a Quote from UF IFAS Extension on Fishmeal --
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/PS/PS04300.PDF


Quote:


Quote:
Blue Seal/Kent/EverGreen and Nutrina are now a Vegetarian feed that does not contain Animal proteins, Purina uses Fishmeal, Feather Meal, in there better Poultry Feeds, Show Feeds and Show Supplements. (I think I even seen Whey and Milk products in one or two of Purina's better feeds also).

Buckeye uses Porcine Meat Meal,

Chris

 

[GreenMountainEric]

As for Porcine Meat Meal (Pork) -
Buckeye Nutrition -- http://www.buckeyenutrition.com/media/137741/40_pct_poultry concentrate.pdf


If Fishmeal is not a Animal Protein Meal then what is it then?
Here is a Quote from UF IFAS Extension on Fishmeal --
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/PS/PS04300.PDF






Blue Seal/Kent/EverGreen and Nutrina are now a Vegetarian feed that does not contain Animal proteins, Purina uses Fishmeal, Feather Meal, in there better Poultry Feeds, Show Feeds and Show Supplements. (I think I even seen Whey and Milk products in one or two of Purina's better feeds also).

Buckeye uses Porcine Meat Meal,

Chris

Thank you for clarifying.... Only one company uses porcine meat meal anymore, the largest feed companies in the world do not use animal protein products anymore, and that the third largest uses poultry feather meal (Which is the leftovers from poultry processing and consists of feathers, bone, blood, and reject meat components)

I didn't know that fish were considered animals, but I suppose they would be. Technically every animate muticell organism is. My mistake.

Nonetheless, I apologize to the OP....... I littered this thread with off topic info. I will refrain from posting anything else that is useless to this thread.

 

[Chris09]

Thank you for clarifying.... Only one company uses porcine meat meal anymore, the largest feed companies in the world do not use animal protein products anymore, and that the third largest uses poultry feather meal (Which is the leftovers from poultry processing and consists of feathers, bone, blood, and reject meat components)

I didn't know that fish were considered animals, but I suppose they would be. Technically every animate muticell organism is. My mistake.

Nonetheless, I apologize to the OP....... I littered this thread with off topic info. I will refrain from posting anything else that is useless to this thread.

Quote:
I'm not going to go through and list every company for you. Plus it only takes one company to prove your statement incorrect.



Quote: They are, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/animal

Definition of ANIMAL

1​

: any of a kingdom (Animalia) of living things including many-celled organisms and often many of the single-celled ones (as protozoans) that typically differ from plants in having cells without cellulose walls, in lacking chlorophyll and the capacity for photosynthesis, in requiring more complex food materials (as proteins), in being organized to a greater degree of complexity, and in having the capacity for spontaneous movement and rapid motor responses to stimulation



Quote: Feather Meal is just Hydrolyzed Poultry Feathers, no leftover, bones, blood or reject meat.

FEATHER MEAL​

Hydrolyzed poultry feathers or feather meal is produced by hydrolyzing clean, undecomposed feathers from slaughtered poultry.
The most important factor affecting the quality of hydrolyzed poultry feathers is the extent of hydrolyzation. If less than 75 percent of the crude protein content is digestible by the pepsin digestibility method, then hydrolyzation was incomplete and protein quality is reduced.
The protein in feather meal is degraded slowly in the rumen compared to most other protein sources. In research at Purdue University, a combination of feather meal and urea produced average daily gains in growing beef cattle similar to that achieved with soybean meal.
There is very little experience with feather meal in dairy cattle rations. It is not very palatable and should be introduced into the ration gradually. It may be fed to milking cows at an average rate of up to 1 ½ pounds (0.7 kg) per cow per day.
Typical Analysis
Dry matter

92 %​

Crude Protein

85.0%​

Fat

03.0 %​

Crude fiber

03.0 %​

Neutral Detergent Fiber

--- %​

Acid Detergent Fiber

16.2 %​

Calcium

0.45 %​

Phosphorus

0.31 %​

Total Digestible Nutrients

63.0 %​

Net energy—Lactation

64.0 Mcal/100 lbs
​

Chris

 

[GreenMountainEric]

Geeze Chris..... I said "most companies". Did you read what I wrote??? And I was agreeing with you about the fish, did you not read that?? And I know what feather meal is, and what the feed industry product contains. It is my JOB! You are badgering me, and contradicting my posts, in multiple threads, just for the fun of it. It is not helpful to this forum, and I am done.


Sorry OP