When to care... or care by culling? Injured right leg - @16weeks chick.

[NjoyNjoy]

After reading and reading the forum on injuries of legs, I resolved around ten days ago to not cull my 16 wk chicken - Rhodesian Red. But I question now whether I have done the right thing.

About three weeks ago one morning she presented walking strange, where she was walking on her right foot due to lack of coordination of where to put her foot. UNFORTUNATELY, I isolated her and gave her rest, this immobilisation I think ruined her movement all together. She now does not place her foot at all and 'kneels' on her 'elbow', with the lower leg our in front of her awkwardly to the outer side from her body. Otherwise non weight bearing and remains totally uncoordinated.

She does stand often and wants to walk and tries to swing the leg from her hip.

I did not present at the vet.

She is to in pain it seems.
But she has lost most of her condition in muscle and her feathers are dull.
Comb still red.
And loves a cuddle, and tired of returning to her hospital kennel. She is amongst the other chickens, just in a raised old dog kennel so the bully cannot get her.

I do put her out in a garden bed each day especially if the weather has grace for 15minutes (Winter in Australia). But she can only forage with her beak. Or somewhere she can eat grass tips, and get fresh air and keep perspective of the surrounds - rather than inside a kennel.

I am suspecting, which I did not until now, that maybe her hip was affected some way. I have thought she had pulled something in her 'thigh' and had no strength to coordinate the lower limbs. So I have a different perspective now.

But what is it I need to check if it is the hip. And is it too late to help her?

There is no overt injury, only ill coordination in the beginning and since hospitalising her to rest for a few days, she stopped all movement of that leg - losing the ability to weight bear on that foot altogether.

This is my concern.

Eating well, (not enough though), drinking, talking with me and her flock, wants to get out and about, but just can't.

Any ideas?

Should I assess her further and for what?
Can I do physio? if so what. - I have been monitoring the foot/leg for warmth, sometimes it is cold or cool but I reposition it and she warms up again. Mostly it is warm.
I have tried suspending her (which she does not enjoy) but at least it gives the injured leg another position and opportunity to move without weight bearing.

tips anyone?

 

[Eggcessive]

She could possibly have a vitamin B2 (riboflavin) deficiency which causes curled toe paralysis. This can also be a symptom of Mareks disease when it happens later. I would start the vitamins (B complex crushed in food or dissolved in water or poultry vitamins in the water,) but they should have ideally been given when symptoms first happened to be effective, if it is a vitamin deficiency. However if it is Mareks, you can only help her eat and make her comfortable. There are 4 types of Mareks that affect different parts of the body--nerve, skin, eye, or internal organ tumors. I hope that it isn't mareks. Here are some links to read about riboflavin deficiency and Mareks:
http://www.thepoultrysite.com/publications/6/diseases-of-poultry/217/vitamin-b2-deficiency
http://extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resource000791_Rep813.pdf
http://partnersah.vet.cornell.edu/avian-atlas/search/disease/502
https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq

 

[NjoyNjoy]

Thanks Eggcessive.
I will try the Vit B approach.

If it was the virus, how soon would the other girls be affected?
And what do people do, after culling the first/ affected ones?
Just let selection take place???

After vit b 1.2. or multi B etc and I find it works, what shall I do then?
Anything special?
Anything further I need to know.

- Njoy

 

[Eggcessive]

You can use any vitamin with riboflavin (B2) in it. Poultry vitamins (except for Nutri-drench) or human B-complex can be used. Here is a part of the Mareks fac from the link above:

How long after being infected will a chicken show symptoms?
A bird may never show symptoms. Generally, Classic Marek's (with paralysis and/or lymphomas) has an incubation period of 3-25 weeks. Meaning, the 'soonest' that a chicken might show visceral symptoms after being infected is about three weeks... but on the other hand it may not show symptoms for up to 25 weeks.
After initial infection, (when the chicken breathes the virus in), the general timeline is as follows for classic Marek's disease only:

• Approximately 7 days: Virus latency (meaning the virus has now stored a 'blueprint' of itself in the chicken's cells).
• Approximately 10 days - death: Full replication of the virus is carried out and the chicken begins to "shed" the virus.
• Approximately 7 days -3 weeks: Lymphocytes carrying latent Marek's virus travel through the body, to visceral organs and nerves.
• Approximately 3-4 weeks: In chickens that do not develop resistance, the lymphocites in the organs and nerves undergo a transformation and become gross lymphomas. It is only at this point that symptoms appear and, sadly death often follows shortly after.

Reference: http://vir.sgmjournals.org/content/86/11/2989.long
Infected chickens generally do not present with paralysis and tumor growth after one year of age (though some individuals still can, it is more uncommon). Infected birds may present any of the other symptoms at any age after 4 weeks, however. There are no hard and fast “rules” as to when a bird may become symptomatic

 

[NjoyNjoy]

This marek virus is consuming for the chickens isn't it.

I do agree with a post I read recently, that stress can induce e.g. environmental - weather, predators prowling. As with the human herpes simplex (that breaks out through the facial nerves - and potentially herpes complex - generals), stress brings this on too. Including poor diet, and other stressors to the stable system our body needs for wellbeing and for keeping the virus at rest. In humans I believe it 'rests' in the spinal nervous region unless the stress trigger opens the door and along the nerve it travels and breakout at the weakest link e.g. lips (or genitals).

I am new to this virus in terms of chickens.

I have heard that lysine works for felines/stress/herpes conditions, and noted this also on some posts elsewhere. I have not searched BYC of this one today.

I have decided to commence my chick on both VitB and Lysine.

A)Unsure that she has mareks but open minded. I have all along thought she had injured her right leg. But after reading the marek viral details I began looking with new eyes.
I suppose I am dubious because she wants to get out and go with the other chooks. She is not sick apart from not able to walk, and some depression with this naturally, low food intake /although when she does eat she eats well, but fussy in what she eats (aren't all chickens!!!). And she gets upset when I return her to her 'hospital' kennel - rests when she is in there but does not like being sat back inside, want to be outside.

I have managed to load some photos for experienced marek folk and others to comment on please to help me understand more.

Overt Signs:

• right leg none weigh bearing (see above image, where she is actually standing balanced on one leg) - uses her elbow to balance or lies down to eat.

• yesterday (when i began looking for marek signs) noticed her face has small lumps on left side. Checked all the body, but no other similar markings. Her head/neck area ia really oily on her feathers though. And I put this down to not being able to preen herself (she still had the feather 'casings' after getting her mature feathers (chick is <20weeks - been disabled ?? 3-4weeks).
• has gurgling in her throat/fluid.
• tail is low, not up and bright and perky.

Above: Top left = left side of face showing skin condition (unsure how long this has been like this, no before shots!) Top right = nil skin condition. Bottom left = Rhodey leaning on 'elbow' with right leg. Bottom right = aerial view of how she lies, right foot to the outside of body.



B) Another complication for me.... this chick was one of two that were the hatched as purchased fertilised eggs, by a clucky hen. The second of the two, turns out to be a rooster. It crowed distinctly yesterday morning (be it croaky). I have had some suspicions over the last few weeks as in the mornings s/he would make stranger noised as if her/his voice was breaking.

The reason I raise this is that this means I cannot keep him - no rooster in urban settings. But he cannot go back to the chicken farm I bought the fertilised eggs from neither IF she has mareks. So I am in a bind, or should I say he is in a bind, and will need culling unless another marks zone home is found who can have roosters.

I will not be sorry to see this one go, as he is a real bully even before the Rhodey became unwell. I don't know what would happen during the day whenever I am not home, but I would see him peck her at the head and neck. As wee ones she would stand up to him and I thought it was just play. But he is BIG, real big now and towers over her. I think this level of stress probably contributed to her being susceptible for injury e.g. escaping his pecking or nervousness inducing herpes/mareks if it is this.

Any tips?

Oh, and I see on one of the articles that the chickens with overt signs of the virus of marks die within 3-4 weeks. She is still living. So I am not sure if I can rule marks in if this is the case.

 

[Eggcessive]

I'm not certain about the bumps on the face, but small abscesses can look like the one with the possible peck mark in the middle. My guess is that may have pus inside which can be firm and waxy in chickens.) You could lance it and try to squeeze out the puss. Tumors can also show up from Mareks. Try feeding her a soft scrambles egg daily. Most chickens love that, or canned tuna, or dry cat food is a favorite.

 

[NjoyNjoy]

Thanks.
She ate her scrabbled eggs this morning (Australian time).

 

[NjoyNjoy]

I have emailed the chicken farm that sold me the fertilised eggs (which my broody Isa Brown hatched). I await his response to my pictures and story. Because I will need to do something about the chick that is crowing more and more ---- she is a rooster! So if it if no Mareks Disease he can be swapped.




These bottom two photos are from the back of her neck and her mid back, while searching for any cutaneous lumps (MD). AS I am not sure what her skin /follicles were like beforehand, I thought I would post this to see if experienced folk could assist like yourself, also.

I would truly love to giver her a bath all the way up to her neck, as she is not able to dust bath herself, and you know what it is like when you are bed ridden for so long you just want a big bath to make you feel clean and new again. She get fresh linen/bedding daily but her body needs a good wash. And if it is MD this will minimise the body 'dust' from her hospital kennel /spreading potential.

Any advice. We are in the middle of winter in Australia, so not so easy. She gets too hot inside with the heater on low even, and it is too cold to dry off outside. So tricky. Would she benefit from a bath though? And can I somehow do the preening of her head feathers where the casings of her new feathers still sits? She cannot stand long enough to twist her head and preen her neck feathers as she normally would do, so she has not removed any of them. I do try to un-tease the feathers from the casing (whatever the real word is) but this creates 'dust' which is not good if it is MD. So can someone advise me on this too?

If it is confirmed that she does have MD I think I will cull her. AS it is unknown if she just decline internally and then die anyway. I am thinking quality of life in the waiting for better or worsening of her condition too.

Tips please.

 

[seminolewind]

Hi. I'm glad you're trying the B vitamins. I do think they're worth a try.
The bumps on her face look like pox to me, my rooster just had them and was real lethargic and didn't eat that much. He's better now. You mention a gurgly noise. Do you think she has a respiratory problem?

What's your flock history? How many birds did you have before her? Can you figure out who brought the Marek's in if it's Marek's?

What I have noticed about the Marek's birds that get paralysis is that they seem to be eating, but if I watch, they are not really "connecting" with the food. Like no depth perception.

Sounds like you may or May NOt have several things going on. Pox, put ointment on the bumps. If she truly has a respiratory problem, Tylan would be good. (antibiotic). B vitamins. If she's a picky eater, try making a wet mash from the feed.

If it's Marek's, she'll continue to deteriorate. In most cases. Or someone else will get it. In most cases. Eggcessive gave some good advice and good links to read.

Nothing you read on Marek's is a definite , or the "only" symptoms. It's all more/most common, etc. What you usually read about is the classic signs. But there are many other symptoms they can have, and the symptoms can look like other illnesses. I've had them become symptomatic at 6 weeks, and several years old, and all in between.

 

[NjoyNjoy]

Thanks for your input Seminolewind.

You asked for my Poultry History:
I have three current members of the flock, as I have spoken about above. Serogate mother to two @17weeks Chicks. One is hen and one it turns out is a rooster.

The serrate mother, is Isa Brown, and she arrived on my urban block around a year or more ago and has not left! I am not sure if someone deposited her into my front yard or whether she flew in but one Sunday morning she appeared and made herself at home. She is well and strong. Has had two bouts of respiratory infections last year and this year which antibiotic cleared up directly - Only sign was changed voice/a squeak. I think she got caught in a down pour the last time, The first time she changed nesting - didn't go home for a few nights and it rained severely and she got wet. I ensured she went home each night form them on.

Chicks have been healthy from day one until the Rhodey presently one morning with the uncoordinated gait, as mentioned above.

These current three flock members are my second flock.

The first flock were retired Isa Browns. Three chickens which I relieved a retired couple of, who were going Grey Nomad (in Australia that means grey=old/matureaged people, going travelling in their camper vans or caravans around Australia for a year or more, living off their old age pension and savings).

I took that flock on as my first experience. I wanted to understand chickens and organic gardening, etc. So I began with adult chickens. Two actually were put down, as they had cancer as it turned out. One riddled, the vet told me. The other was a great companion but she and I met with a gardening accident. an old metal bath I was using as a garden bed/pot fell on top of both my thigh and my dear girl. I was off work for three months with a crushed muscle and she died at the scene of the accident. Poor dear.

The property was person and pet free for about five years before I bought it.

I have had a dog, since passed away. I have been here @8years.

A new rooster is in the immediate neighbourhood, which makes me think new chickens are too. (although no roosters are allowed in our city - so it will be reported sometime soon I suspect) Unfortunately because it is lovely to hear a rooster crow. And he is very considerate and waits till @9am so I can't see the harm in that. He is in the street off and behind ours, Probably the equivalent of 5 house fronts away. That is airborne carrier distance, no doubt, if it is BD.

Wild birds are coming and going all day long everyday, unless the bully rooster sees them first, He is very territorial and chasing them away!

Although I do go to the feed store in my gardening shoes, ( I won't from now on) which I wear all around my urban yard. So whether i picked something up there if it is BD.

They were all sleeping in a large dog kennel elevated off the ground for winter. It is a hard sold plastic and all there are no crevices for creatures to hide in. The nightly poop is scooped each day, and shredded sugar cane straw is replaced as needed. I have never had any trouble with this straw before, nor the kennel. So I am not concerned about the hygiene aspect there.

Otherwise I am none the wiser.

The fussiness of their eating does concern me. Although the chicks eat a lot more greens than Mumma, but she has taken to them more now that they are eating in front of her. Fussy on veges, mash, seeds unless black sunflower, and love split corn or fresh corn. Obvious the later is within reason. But they would live on it. I have a treadle feeder which mumma uses well, but the chicks are still shy. They got frightened when they were tiny by the noise of it shutting. And remain cautious unfortunately. The rooster is tall enough to not step on the plate to open it, so waits for mumma to open it and then rushes to eat while standing by the edge of the treadle peddle/plate. Eats but with one eye on mum ma's movements to see if she is about jump off hence the lid will come down on him. He is capable of standing ON the treadle to open it but just doesn't do it!!!!

So they do have food on demand available to them besides breakfast and supper and the entire garden.

I will look up the other sickness you suggested. To understand that.

What gets me is that she wants to be on the go, she is NOT sick, per se, she is frustrated with being immobile and not being out among the others (does not miss the bullying of the rooster though, I am sure).

Oh, I scored a large bottle of multi-Vit B plus today on special from $50 (Australian) to $10 as it is nearly expired. This is fine for my chicken and me for the coming couple of months or more for daily does.

I am conscious of not ever x-raying her leg. Maybe i should have, to see if there was something that is stopping her from using her lower leg, from the 'elbow' down.

thanks again for both your input.

Oh, I have a video/footage of her trying to lift her leg/foot to place it down. But I cannot see a way to post it. IF anyone knows how to post a home video of 20sec worth, I will appreciate this. This may (or may not) assist with diagnosis.