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Chooks4Life, I've got a question for you. I think it's up your alley ;-)

Do you keep track of chicks that get wry neck, spraddle leg, etc to see if their offspring have a similar problem? If maybe it's not that they didn't get enough B vits but that they couldn't use them? Or a tendency to loose joints? Or- well who knows why but does it seem to sometimes travel down (or up) the lineage? I understand chickens can be harder to trace parentage at times or keep track of offspring but I was just wondering.

Thanks!
 
tridentk9 said:
Chooks4Life, I've got a question for you. I think it's up your alley ;-)

Do you keep track of chicks that get wry neck, spraddle leg, etc to see if their offspring have a similar problem?
I have not had malnutrition caused wry neck, but I have had a few MD cases who got it as part of the symptoms, and then died. So I have no records on their offspring, especially because it happened when they were too young. I've never seen so many cases of deficiency diseases as I've seen on these forums and among those who rely on proprietary commercial mixes for all their animals' needs; I knew malnutrition was at epidemic levels, but it's still been surprising to see how incredibly prevalent it is.
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If maybe it's not that they didn't get enough B vits but that they couldn't use them?
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Or a tendency to loose joints?
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Or- well who knows why but does it seem to sometimes travel down (or up) the lineage? I understand chickens can be harder to trace parentage at times or keep track of offspring but I was just wondering.

Thanks!
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As for increasing, decreasing, or static traits, my experience is that static traits are the exception to the rule and the rest are generally on the incline or decline. People need to consider the whole picture as well, for example the environment may look the same all decade long but it is not, it is continually changing as well, not static, and the health of the soil impacts every single thing above it in ways we are still not overly aware of. Any grounds that have been dressed with certain artificial fertilizers can inhibit some vital nutrients in the animals' bodies by up to 100% according to the CSIRO.
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I also believe nowhere near enough attention is paid to epigenetics but that's a new field in terms of receiving validation and attention. More attention to it will yield more information of course and soon enough I expect it will be something all chook keepers pay some mind to. I expect it contains the answers to a lot of our currently unexplainable questions.
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Best wishes.
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Thanks! Funny just after I posted the question I realized I'd forgotten to ask about the gut's beneficial inhabitants. Now I'm wondering if any tests had been done to see what worked best in chickens or if it depended on the current problem. Probiotics are recommended for dogs with pica(eating unusual or nonfood items), obsessive carpet/floor licking or allergies. A vet in California has been saying for years that a lack of Vit C in dogs leads to lax hips and therefore hip displasia.

Epigenetics can really throw what we think we know about genetics on it's head. I just read an article on C-sections that stated they now think a C-section can switch some genes off/on. Who knew?

It's hard to tell sometimes if problems are more prevalent, if only people with problems post or if it's that there now is a forum to openly discuss problems. What before you might discuss with four neighbors now gets read by 4000. I don't remember problems with chickens as a kid- but I just am not sure if there weren't problems or I just don't remember. I think it's the second.

LOL- I got hatchery chicks so I wouldn't be tempted to breed them. Also so I wouldn't have to tell a breeder that I'd messed up the chicks I'd bought from them if anything wrong happened.

Again, Thank you.
 
tridentk9 said:
Thanks! Funny just after I posted the question I realized I'd forgotten to ask about the gut's beneficial inhabitants. Now I'm wondering if any tests had been done to see what worked best in chickens or if it depended on the current problem.
The one thing in common was their conventional keeping methods. Lots of theories, nothing much solid, but either way the common layer diet analysis shows it contains a few dozen less nutrients than what a complete spectrum diet does, so it's a safer bet. No way should chicks be hatching with deficiency caused spraddling, yet they are, and plenty of them. That doesn't make sense when they're still two days away from their first meal. It means it must have been a parental deficiency, almost certainly. About time 'complete' was taken off most labels, in my opinion.
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Most chooks from hatcheries also have pica, but it's harder for most to recognize in chooks for a few reasons.
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That's interesting, I'd be inclined to think they're right as connective tissue and so forth relies on vit C for production and maintenance to a large extent and many environmental influences particularly rob us and our animals of vit C. Still, are they saying it's not genetic, or that it can be partly environmental as well?
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Yeah, there's a lot of strange info coming out about epigenetics. Very interesting stuff. I've heard it said that all our most recent breeds of chickens are created via epigenetics more than actual genetic change, if that makes sense, as nothing else can change so quickly.
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It's true for sure, things can seem more common just because more people talk about them. This forum is an interesting resource but there's a lot of other resources we must keep an eye on too for well balanced information. Some folks seem to forget that not all info is online and request citations via links, which is obviously hard when one has the info in books not websites, lol., and nigh impossible when one no longer has the book and it's not in print anymore nor available online in one form or another.
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LOL- I got hatchery chicks so I wouldn't be tempted to breed them. Also so I wouldn't have to tell a breeder that I'd messed up the chicks I'd bought from them if anything wrong happened.

Again, Thank you.
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You're welcome. I wouldn't worry about upsetting breeders, as far as I've seen they will only sell off faulty stock to the average buyer and you'd need to be some kind of bosom buddy to get anything seriously valuable from the majority of them. ;) Good thing I like my random-bred mongrels, faults and all.
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Here's a link that discusses vitamin C in dogs. Though it doesn't say it in this article, Ester C should not be used in puppies as it adds calcium and there are certain breeds and mixes that should not have added vitamin C (hyperurisocoria dogs).

http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/1_7/features/5309-1.html

One of the dog foods had a problem with a vitamin or mineral (selenium?). It turned out all of their lamb was from one area- and the soil in that area was low in needed vitamins and minerals. The lack showed up in their dog food causing problems. The company now sources their lamb from several areas. It's all connected. If the soil is low, the vegetation will be low, the herbivores will be low and the end product will be low. It's one reason to alternate foods occasionally.
 
Very true, all health above the soil is dependent on soil health as well. Chemical fertilizers can inhibit uptake of certain nutrients up to 100% though, I'm wondering if this may have something to do with it. It's an advancing problem we've been building on for many years now even though the alarms were sounded decades ago. People just forget.

On the topic of vitamin C megadosing, I wonder if anyone's tried this with Marek's and some other poultry diseases. It'd work for some of them, guaranteed.

Best wishes.
 
Marek's is so terrible! After over six months of no problems, one of my 7 month old vaccinated Dutch Bantam pullets turned up with both legs basically lame this morning. Same signs that I saw in five birds months ago... I culled her, since I do not want to promote weak disease resistance in my flock anymore. Nice little pullet, just beginning to lay eggs *sigh*

Good luck to anyone else on this thread that is struggling with Marek's, too.
 
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Sorry for your loss.

Being vaccinated apparently doesn't stop them getting it, it stops them showing symptoms, which seems like a problem if you're breeding for resistance as they wouldn't show it.

Best wishes.
 
It's also possible that chicks were vaccinated improperly at the hatchery. Found a great link that showed how they are vaccinated, how it can go wrong, etc.

-Kathy
 

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