BREEDING FOR PRODUCTION...EGGS AND OR MEAT.

bmvf said:

A few updates: My last hatch which ended two weeks ago was much better than the hatches before, but not where I want to be. I had 22 out of 41 eggs hatch with 2 others not making it out of the shell. The Brinsea thermometer helped a lot although I only got it a few day after starting incubation. I still had a prolonged hatch and lost humidity rapidly after I took the first chicks out after 24 hours. In the meantime I bought a Genesis incubator and it was delivered a few days after the hatch completed. But, the next day the new incubator was off to my cousins place for duck eggs! They bought a few ducks at the local auction and found they could sell the eggs at their produce stand (along with their own chicken eggs) for $4.50 a dozen. With only 4 females and 4 males, they needed more laying!

My New Hampshire project is likely ending. The rooster was going after my wife and kids when they got eggs. He started going after me and there were a few times he jumped at the door as we were just about to enter or had just left. So he is no more. I have the new chicks so I could continue breeding them but I'm going to focus on the Delawares which may still be a month away from having eggs large enough to hatch. I have considered putting the Delaware roo in with the NH's which is a cross that has interested me. The other problem I saw was feed conversion. Without detailed records, I was going through a $15 bag of feed in a week and was getting less than 7 dozen eggs. That's over $2 a dozen just in feed costs. Either I need to find cheaper ways to feed or I need to get rid of chickens since a dozen eggs a day is plenty for my small family who rarely eat eggs for breakfast.

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The "good" eggs at costco are 6 a dozen now.

bmvf said:

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A few updates:  My last hatch which ended two weeks ago was much better than the hatches before, but not where I want to be.  I had 22 out of 41 eggs hatch with 2 others not making it out of the shell.  The Brinsea thermometer helped a lot although I only got it a few day after starting incubation.  I still had a prolonged hatch and lost humidity rapidly after I took the first chicks out after 24 hours.  In the meantime I bought a Genesis incubator and it was delivered a few days after the hatch completed.  But, the next day the new incubator was off to my cousins place for duck eggs!  They bought a few ducks at the local auction and found they could sell the eggs at their produce stand (along with their own chicken eggs) for $4.50 a dozen.  With only 4 females and 4 males, they needed more laying!

My New Hampshire project is likely ending.  The rooster was going after my wife and kids when they got eggs.  He started going after me and there were a few times he jumped at the door as we were just about to enter or had just left.  So he is no more.  I have the new chicks so I could continue breeding them but I'm going to focus on the Delawares which may still be a month away from having eggs large enough to hatch.  I have considered putting the Delaware roo in with the NH's which is a cross that has interested me.  The other problem I saw was feed conversion.  Without detailed records, I was going through a $15 bag of feed in a week and was getting less than 7 dozen eggs.  That's over $2 a dozen just in feed costs.  Either I need to find cheaper ways to feed or I need to get rid of chickens since a dozen eggs a day is plenty for my small family who rarely eat eggs for breakfast.  
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Sorry about the NH. It happens. Why not look into selling hatching eggs?
Tthat's what I want to do.

bmvf said:

A few updates: My last hatch which ended two weeks ago was much better than the hatches before, but not where I want to be. I had 22 out of 41 eggs hatch with 2 others not making it out of the shell. The Brinsea thermometer helped a lot although I only got it a few day after starting incubation. I still had a prolonged hatch and lost humidity rapidly after I took the first chicks out after 24 hours. In the meantime I bought a Genesis incubator and it was delivered a few days after the hatch completed. But, the next day the new incubator was off to my cousins place for duck eggs! They bought a few ducks at the local auction and found they could sell the eggs at their produce stand (along with their own chicken eggs) for $4.50 a dozen. With only 4 females and 4 males, they needed more laying!

My New Hampshire project is likely ending. The rooster was going after my wife and kids when they got eggs. He started going after me and there were a few times he jumped at the door as we were just about to enter or had just left. So he is no more. I have the new chicks so I could continue breeding them but I'm going to focus on the Delawares which may still be a month away from having eggs large enough to hatch. I have considered putting the Delaware roo in with the NH's which is a cross that has interested me. The other problem I saw was feed conversion. Without detailed records, I was going through a $15 bag of feed in a week and was getting less than 7 dozen eggs. That's over $2 a dozen just in feed costs. Either I need to find cheaper ways to feed or I need to get rid of chickens since a dozen eggs a day is plenty for my small family who rarely eat eggs for breakfast.

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The New Hampshires that you have are a cross between the Frank Reese meat line, and the German birds. The tendency towards man fighters comes from the Reese side. When I tried this cross, I had a few.
I would not breed with him either. You will just make more of him. That eliminates him, and then there are no other options. That is part of the danger of keeping one male. Chickens die, things pop up etc. We cannot expect to do much, or go very far with a single male. It is a dead end eventually.

I do a little better on the cost per dozen eggs. It would be difficult to know why. The best cost saver is to feed them in the evenings after being allowed to forage on good forage during the day. But I disagree with doing that with growing birds.
What is certain is that breeding birds, even for production, is not as economical as shopping at Wal Mart. You will never compete with that system buying a few bags of feed at a time. It really is quite remarkable how efficient the commercial sector is. Love them or hate them.

Now you do have a value added product, and many consumers would agree. I live in the rural south, and they are a practical bunch. They are not going to pay large sums of money for a dozen eggs. I sell mine ( or rather my wife does because I do not like the hassle), for 3.00 if a carton is provided. 3.50 otherwise. We could not possibly meet the demand at that price, and could probably go to 4.00 and still get rid of all we have. Of course there are some that would not pay the 3.00. Many would not, but there are still enough to appreciate the difference.
I do not make money off of eggs. LOL. It does buy some feed, and helps to maintain the breeding flock.

At our local farmer's market, they go for 4.00-4.50 a dozen.

I sell layers locally. I do not like selling birds either, but we have a bit of a following now. People are always stopping buy and asking for birds. I usually have a few growers that I have decided against. I could get rid of more if I hatched more, but there is no money it. I do however, offset some of the cost of growing the birds out.
It took me a while before I would sell any at all, or at least advertise for it. But, they started coming, and still are.

I could if I chose, break even on the whole thing. That is not my goal though. For me it is a hobby, and I breed for improvement. I am always about the numbers, and looking to do better. I also realize what and why. I would do things much differently if profit, or economy was my #1 concern.

It will boil down to want to, and how much there is. If this is something that you want to do enough, you will find a way, along the way. It is not for everyone, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I think a lot depends on the breed one is using for breaking even or for profit. I used to make a profit from my laying flock by keeping overhead low and using birds that produce well. I don't know if that can be done with most of the heritage breed stock folks are keeping now, as they don't exactly lay like certain breeds of hatchery stock can.

That's one thing I'm trying to change with the WRs I'm breeding now by injecting some good laying stock genes into the mix. If that doesn't improve the line, I can't imagine I'll keep heritage line birds for long...I don't really have the money for a hobby. Hobbies aren't really for folks who don't have extra money, so either I improve production so the birds can justify the feed bought or I go back to birds that can.

Beekissed said:

I think a lot depends on the breed one is using for breaking even or for profit. I used to make a profit from my laying flock by keeping overhead low and using birds that produce well. I don't know if that can be done with most of the heritage breed stock folks are keeping now, as they don't exactly lay like certain breeds of hatchery stock can.

That's one thing I'm trying to change with the WRs I'm breeding now by injecting some good laying stock genes into the mix. If that doesn't improve the line, I can't imagine I'll keep heritage line birds for long...I don't really have the money for a hobby. Hobbies aren't really for folks who don't have extra money, so either I improve production so the birds can justify the feed bought or I go back to birds that can.

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AMEN


I'm fortunate to have a few dollars to spend on our collective 'hobby', and this hobby can get quite expensive as everyone knows. I'm also fortunate to have three of my adult kids living here to do most of the work...leaving me to pay the bills and enjoy the fruit of what they produce (or fail to produce).

Our NN fancy has been deemed a folly by a large majority of the family and have been given to friends and some 4-Hers, leaving us with three meat producing project breeds.

IMO I think that anyone who enters into raising chickens for profit may end up highly disapointed. Yes, if you find a high volume market to sell eggs and control feed costs you may realize a profit. I always thought farmers raised chickens for meat and eggs to feed their families. But of course they grew their own grain crops and other things as well around the homestead. They surely did a lot of horse trading between themselves also. As like most things in life, you usually get out of it what you put into it.
Comparing heritage stock to hatchery stock for laying purposes has me confused how you derived that conclusion. It would be interesting which heritage breeds you are comparing to hatchery stock breeds? Just about any breeder that has heritage breeds is also offered thru most hatcheries. I have to assume you are comparing to hybrid sex links. And yes then I may agree with you on some but not all.

Our Roost said:

IMO I think that anyone who enters into raising chickens for profit may end up highly disapointed. Yes, if you find a high volume market to sell eggs and control feed costs you may realize a profit. I always thought farmers raised chickens for meat and eggs to feed their families. But of course they grew their own grain crops and other things as well around the homestead. They surely did a lot of horse trading between themselves also. As like most things in life, you usually get out of it what you put into it.
Comparing heritage stock to hatchery stock for laying purposes has me confused how you derived that conclusion. It would be interesting which heritage breeds you are comparing to hatchery stock breeds? Just about any breeder that has heritage breeds is also offered thru most hatcheries. I have to assume you are comparing to hybrid sex links. And yes then I may agree with you on some but not all.

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It's generally assumed, with good reason, that most if not all major hatcheries wave the "Leghorn Wand" over most of their production and dual-purpose breeds with the intent of improving egg production...something most people who buy from hatcheries will over-look a multitude of flaws if the buyer is getting reasonably good egg production.

Ron


Sorry about the syntax but I think everyone will figure it out.

We would all do well to get out of our heads comparing breeds. It does not make any sense. We are comparing strains. Bee said breeds, but used strains as an example, comparing hatchery White Rocks that she has experience with with another strain of the same breed. That illustrates the differences and genetic variability among strains. A tale of two extremes, and there is all in between.

Forget the word Heritage. It is a very misused term. Show strains were represented here as heritage. The ALBC will label anything as heritage. We should call them what they are. There is the commercial production strains, hatchery birds, back yard junk, and show strains. There are very few, that breed good typed birds to be productive. These would be utility lines. Better representatives of the breed than hatchery stock, better dual purpose birds than hatchery stock, and lay as well? Who has these? They are as rare as hen's teeth.

There are genetic antagonisms that limit us. Improving size, and rate of growth, makes for bigger eaters. Thus less efficient egg layers. Breeding better layers that are more efficient considering lbs. of feed per dozen eggs, breeds lighter birds than are not as productive concerning flesh.

The appropriately sized dual purpose breeds, and larger than they should be strains eat 5oz + per day. 114 lbs of feed requires 204 eggs in a year to maintain the breeding hens. 114 lbs of feed @ .30 is 34.00. 200 eggs @ 2.00 per dozen is 34.00. This is what the man here has run into.
Now what do you do to improve the genetics? Which way do you go? Continue to improve the meat characteristics of the STRAIN, that will eat more? Or go the other way.

A 4oz per day eater that lays 220-240 eggs pa is a more efficient layer. They would lay a little more, and eat a little less.

The in between and balance is about 200 eggs per year, and a fryer (5.0-5.5lbs live weight ) @ 12-14wks. You could tease a few more eggs from a strain like this, but to go too far is to go the other way genetically. When we are asking for in between, we get in between. That is common sense.

I will use the recent article shared here as an example. The numbers at those dates from the hatchery stock was deplorable. They may be good layers, but are terrible eating birds. The numbers do not lie.

We have to decide what we want.

Historically a dual purpose bird meant salvageable cockerels, and spent hens. That is all. From there the numbers led us in two different directions. Meat strains, and laying strains that evolved to the point that we see today.

Are we going to re learn what we already know?

Our Roost said:

IMO I think that anyone who enters into raising chickens for profit may end up highly disapointed. Yes, if you find a high volume market to sell eggs and control feed costs you may realize a profit. I always thought farmers raised chickens for meat and eggs to feed their families. But of course they grew their own grain crops and other things as well around the homestead. They surely did a lot of horse trading between themselves also. As like most things in life, you usually get out of it what you put into it.
Comparing heritage stock to hatchery stock for laying purposes has me confused how you derived that conclusion. It would be interesting which heritage breeds you are comparing to hatchery stock breeds? Just about any breeder that has heritage breeds is also offered thru most hatcheries. I have to assume you are comparing to hybrid sex links. And yes then I may agree with you on some but not all.

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Nope, not comparing to hybrid sex links. Can't stand those birds. I'm comparing heritage lines...those developed by a breeder...to those "heritage" type breeds sold by hatchery. The WR hatchery stock I've had lay like a dream, all seasons, and for years and can put a person ahead of the feed bill every day of the week and twice on Sundays. The BAs from the hatchery even better. What I've read about and what little I've experienced with the heritage line breeder quality WRs is that they think it's good laying to lay 4-5 eggs per week in peak season. That, to me, is not good laying. Maybe I've been spoiled by the hatchery stock I've owned but one most certainly can turn a profit on a laying flock, even today.

For instance, in 57 days my teeny flock laid 347 eggs(9 laying age hens, though not all are laying all the time and some not at all) and in that time I've bought one $10 bag of layer feed and still haven't fed it all out. If I sold those eggs~which I can do easily in these parts~for $2.50 per I'd have made $30. During peak season that can go on for some months. Those 9 birds plus a rooster are down to eating about 2-3 c. of feed now due to the forage being so high and that will continue all spring until fall, with feed consumption dropping all the while~but the laying won't diminish until the birds start to molt. Last year I was feeding a cup and a half to 14 birds in September.

If a person cannot turn a profit on laying birds then they might want to look at their methods. Free ranging, fermented feed, keeping only good layers, intentional planting of quality forages and arranging foraging opportunities that include high protein intake, etc.

I've heard it said on this forum over and over that one cannot make a profit but I manage to do it year after year with very little effort, so all I can figure is that folks are working hard but not smart or don't know how to raise animals on the cheap. They don't need fancy buildings nor fancy equipment and they certainly don't need high dollar feed to produce an egg.

I think it comes down to whatever the breeders have selected their stock for. I think most go torward the cosmetics of breed standard and forget the utility of the breed their working with. IMO.

I've only had those hybrid sexlinks once, wasn't impressed at all. I've had hatchery RIR that would have laid circles around them.