3 way cross

[Georgiabob]

I crossed a splash ameraucana rooster to rir hens and got all blue off spring. If i cross a cream legbar rooster over the blue hens what should i expect in the following generation? Other details are that all offspring from the first cross got the pea comb and only a couple of roosters had and red bleed through the blue. My long term goal is bluer eggs from larger birds than legbars.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Yes, splash will always produce blue offspring (as a black diluter is always passed to produce the blue).

Blue will produce 50% blue and 50% black offspring (as only 50% of offspring will receive any black diluter). Your CL rooster has 2 barring genes, so all progeny will also receive single barring, with I should think some secondary bleed through coloring from him (which gets more complicated than I can keep track of).

The pea comb is dominant, so your F1 offspring would have been pea comb since 1 pea gene would have produced pea comb from the ameraucana/RIR mix...but that would be 1 single gene in the offspring. Bred to a single comb CL, you will get 50% pea and 50% single comb offspring.

I find breeding a heavier carcass to a lighter carcass generally produces a carcass in between the sizes.

Remember to keep the blue egg shell, you'll need to carefully track your breeding. The first generation of Ameraucana/RIR will have a single blue shell gene, with brown genetics from the RIR, so green layers (brown genetics produces a hemoglobin wash which applied to the blue shell produces shades of green). Breeding that generation of hens back to the CL (who has 2 blue genes) will produce 50% 2 blue gene offspring and 50% 1 blue gene offspring...but likely with some leftover brown wash genetics. I find the brown genetics hard to breed back out to get true blue again. I'm waiting for my 3rd gen olive egger rooster bred back to my CL offspring to see if I've cleared some of the green tone. If you are looking for true blue, you will have to breed back carefully several generations (how many I'm about to find out) to get only true blue layers.

My thoughts...I'll throw it at @NatJ to see what he thinks. His genetics are much stronger than mine. But I have fun trying.

LofMc

 

[NatJ]

My thoughts...I'll throw it at @NatJ to see what he thinks. His genetics are much stronger than mine. But I have fun trying.

What you said sounds correct to me.

I crossed a splash ameraucana rooster to rir hens and got all blue off spring. If i cross a cream legbar rooster over the blue hens what should i expect in the following generation?

About 1/4 of the chicks should be black
About 1/4 of the chicks should be blue
About 1/4 of the chicks should have some kind of black-and-red pattern
About 1/4 of the chicks should have some kind of blue-and-red pattern

All of them should have white barring over top of those colors/patterns.

The "some kind of pattern" may resemble what a Cream Legbar has, or it may resemble what a Rhode Island Red has, or it it may have the colors arranged in some other way yet. It may also vary somewhat from one chicken to another.

Other details are that all offspring from the first cross got the pea comb and only a couple of roosters had and red bleed through the blue.

The next generation may have more red bleeding through, and may also get some silver (white) bleeding through.

As @Lady of McCamley said, this first generation all have one copy of the pea comb gene and one copy of the blue egg gene. What she didn't mention is that those two genes are linked: they are close together on one of the chromosomes, and are usually inherited together.

The way the linkage works:
pea comb can be linked to blue egg (Ameraucana)
pea comb can be linked to not-blue egg (Brahma, not in your project)
not-pea comb can be linked to blue egg (Cream Legbar)
not-pea comb can be linked to not-blue egg (Rhode Island Red)

You have three of those four options in your project

In the next generation, you can use that linkage to select chicks that should be pure for the blue egg gene.

About half of the chicks will have pea combs, and the other half will have single combs.

Most of the single comb chicks will have one copy of the blue egg gene (from the Cream Legbar), and one copy of the not-blue-egg gene (originally from the Rhode Island Red.)

Most of the pea comb chicks will have two copies of the blue egg gene (one from the Cream Legbar, and one that traces back to the Ameraucana.)

The genes stay linked most of the time (the literature says about 19 our of 20 times), so it's fairly accurate to pick them by comb type in that generation.

If you want to be entirely sure, there is now a DNA test for the blue egg gene:
https://orders.iqbirdtesting.com/product/blue-egg-gene-with-feathers-sample/
It can tell whether a chicken has one copy, two copies, or no copies of the blue egg gene.
Whether it is worth the money to test chickens for your project, I do not know.
Testing is probably cheaper than test mating, if you do decide you need to know. (Test mating requires breeding the chicken to one without the blue egg gene, raising up a bunch of daughters, and checking what color eggs they lay. That way you can tell how many copies of the blue egg gene are in the one being tested. But that takes months, and you use a lot of feed raising the pullets to egg-laying age.)

If you once get a flock established with all birds being pure for the blue egg gene, all of their offspring will breed true for it as well (unless you introduce the not-blue gene again.)

Do you know which kind of comb you want to end up with eventually? Since you're already working with Ameraucana and Legbar, you could go either way and still get blue eggers.

In later generations, if you cross back to not-blue-egg breeds, you might be able to plan matings that let you track the egg color genes by comb type, or you might not.

My long term goal is bluer eggs from larger birds than legbars.

I expect the next generation to have some variation in size, and the generation after that to have more variation. Obviously, the way to select for larger birds is to breed from some of the biggest ones in each generation.

 

[Georgiabob]

Yes, splash will always produce blue offspring (as a black diluter is always passed to produce the blue).

Blue will produce 50% blue and 50% black offspring (as only 50% of offspring will receive any black diluter). Your CL rooster has 2 barring genes, so all progeny will also receive single barring, with I should think some secondary bleed through coloring from him (which gets more complicated than I can keep track of).

The pea comb is dominant, so your F1 offspring would have been pea comb since 1 pea gene would have produced pea comb from the ameraucana/RIR mix...but that would be 1 single gene in the offspring. Bred to a single comb CL, you will get 50% pea and 50% single comb offspring.

I find breeding a heavier carcass to a lighter carcass generally produces a carcass in between the sizes.

Remember to keep the blue egg shell, you'll need to carefully track your breeding. The first generation of Ameraucana/RIR will have a single blue shell gene, with brown genetics from the RIR, so green layers (brown genetics produces a hemoglobin wash which applied to the blue shell produces shades of green). Breeding that generation of hens back to the CL (who has 2 blue genes) will produce 50% 2 blue gene offspring and 50% 1 blue gene offspring...but likely with some leftover brown wash genetics. I find the brown genetics hard to breed back out to get true blue again. I'm waiting for my 3rd gen olive egger rooster bred back to my CL offspring to see if I've cleared some of the green tone. If you are looking for true blue, you will have to breed back carefully several generations (how many I'm about to find out) to get only true blue layers.

My thoughts...I'll throw it at @NatJ to see what he thinks. His genetics are much stronger than mine. But I have fun trying.

LofMc

I’m wondering what happes when i put the barring gene in the mix. I think i need to actually put one of my legbar roosters over my dominque hen and use the blue roosters over the hens from that cross.

 

[Georgiabob]

What you said sounds correct to me.



About 1/4 of the chicks should be black
About 1/4 of the chicks should be blue
About 1/4 of the chicks should have some kind of black-and-red pattern
About 1/4 of the chicks should have some kind of blue-and-red pattern

All of them should have white barring over top of those colors/patterns.

The "some kind of pattern" may resemble what a Cream Legbar has, or it may resemble what a Rhode Island Red has, or it it may have the colors arranged in some other way yet. It may also vary somewhat from one chicken to another.


The next generation may have more red bleeding through, and may also get some silver (white) bleeding through.

As @Lady of McCamley said, this first generation all have one copy of the pea comb gene and one copy of the blue egg gene. What she didn't mention is that those two genes are linked: they are close together on one of the chromosomes, and are usually inherited together.

The way the linkage works:
pea comb can be linked to blue egg (Ameraucana)
pea comb can be linked to not-blue egg (Brahma, not in your project)
not-pea comb can be linked to blue egg (Cream Legbar)
not-pea comb can be linked to not-blue egg (Rhode Island Red)

You have three of those four options in your project

In the next generation, you can use that linkage to select chicks that should be pure for the blue egg gene.

About half of the chicks will have pea combs, and the other half will have single combs.

Most of the single comb chicks will have one copy of the blue egg gene (from the Cream Legbar), and one copy of the not-blue-egg gene (originally from the Rhode Island Red.)

Most of the pea comb chicks will have two copies of the blue egg gene (one from the Cream Legbar, and one that traces back to the Ameraucana.)

The genes stay linked most of the time (the literature says about 19 our of 20 times), so it's fairly accurate to pick them by comb type in that generation.

If you want to be entirely sure, there is now a DNA test for the blue egg gene:
https://orders.iqbirdtesting.com/product/blue-egg-gene-with-feathers-sample/
It can tell whether a chicken has one copy, two copies, or no copies of the blue egg gene.
Whether it is worth the money to test chickens for your project, I do not know.
Testing is probably cheaper than test mating, if you do decide you need to know. (Test mating requires breeding the chicken to one without the blue egg gene, raising up a bunch of daughters, and checking what color eggs they lay. That way you can tell how many copies of the blue egg gene are in the one being tested. But that takes months, and you use a lot of feed raising the pullets to egg-laying age.)

If you once get a flock established with all birds being pure for the blue egg gene, all of their offspring will breed true for it as well (unless you introduce the not-blue gene again.)

Do you know which kind of comb you want to end up with eventually? Since you're already working with Ameraucana and Legbar, you could go either way and still get blue eggers.

In later generations, if you cross back to not-blue-egg breeds, you might be able to plan matings that let you track the egg color genes by comb type, or you might not.


I expect the next generation to have some variation in size, and the generation after that to have more variation. Obviously, the way to select for larger birds is to breed from some of the biggest ones in each generation.

I plan on going with pea combs since blue eggs are the goal. Once i true up what i want i plan on out crossing tona large breed then picking hens from that cross to breed back to roosters from my crossed birds and more or less choose for size and pea combs from there. Blue or black orpington would probably be what i would go with. There will be a lot of culling but right now there’s plenty of demand for chickens.

 

[NatJ]

I plan on going with pea combs since blue eggs are the goal. Once i true up what i want i plan on out crossing tona large breed then picking hens from that cross to breed back to roosters from my crossed birds and more or less choose for size and pea combs from there. Blue or black orpington would probably be what i would go with. There will be a lot of culling but right now there’s plenty of demand for chickens.

Yes, selecting the pea combs (rather than single like the Legbars) will definitely make it easier to track the blue egg gene when you cross to other breeds that have single combs.

I’m wondering what happes when i put the barring gene in the mix.

You get chickens with white barring. Do you want that?

I think i need to actually put one of my legbar roosters over my dominque hen and use the blue roosters over the hens from that cross.

That cross would make a hen with barring, and then using your blue rooster would give sexlink chicks: not-barred daughters, barred sons (but the sons will also carry the gene for not-barring.)

If you use a Dominique, you will also be adding the rose comb gene. That could make it harder to track which offspring have pea combs, because rose + pea = walnut, and it can sometimes be hard to tell rose and walnut apart. Some rose comb chickens do have the gene for not-rose, and if your Dominique is one of them, half of her chicks will have single combs if their father does.

 

[Georgiabob]

Yes, selecting the pea combs (rather than single like the Legbars) will definitely make it easier to track the blue egg gene when you cross to other breeds that have single combs.


You get chickens with white barring. Do you want that?


That cross would make a hen with barring, and then using your blue rooster would give sexlink chicks: not-barred daughters, barred sons (but the sons will also carry the gene for not-barring.)

If you use a Dominique, you will also be adding the rose comb gene. That could make it harder to track which offspring have pea combs, because rose + pea = walnut, and it can sometimes be hard to tell rose and walnut apart. Some rose comb chickens do have the gene for not-rose, and if your Dominique is one of them, half of her chicks will have single combs if their father does.

Barring would be fine. I’m not as worried about feathers as i am size and egg color. I’m really just building a large breed easter egger. I just bought a couple of fairly large “ameraucana” hens that are really easter eggers but I didn’t bother arguing. They are kind of bufff partidge and one has some almost lavender in places. I May throw a legbar over them.

 

[NatJ]

I’m really just building a large breed easter egger.

Then do you really want Legbar in the mix at all?
You've already got the blue egg gene from your Ameraucana rooster, and the Legbar isn't going to help with the size.

I just bought a couple of fairly large “ameraucana” hens that are really easter eggers but I didn’t bother arguing. They are kind of bufff partidge and one has some almost lavender in places. I May throw a legbar over them.

Or maybe try them with one of your blue males.

 

[Georgiabob]

Then do you really want Legbar in the mix at all?
You've already got the blue egg gene from your Ameraucana rooster, and the Legbar isn't going to help with the size.


Or maybe try them with one of your blue males.

I know. I’m trying to make the impossible happen. The legbar is going to add so much blue that the ee birds don’t have but it may get bred back out as i try to asd size

 

[big spring]

i have been thinking of using a sex link either red or black female
and use a production type new hampshire male as a brood cock . new hampshires can lay jumbo eggs and should add overall a good layer with very large eggs hopefully more larger eggs than a sex link and add some more egg laying years