Advice about rescue hens and a cockerel.

happyhens1972

Songster
6 Years
Jul 24, 2013
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Worcester, UK
I have just more than doubled the size of my little flock and am still somewhat in shock as to how well the integration is going at this point. Some background story...

I have an established 'flock' of six....2 cochin, 2 brahma, 1 cream legbar hen and a cream legbar cockerel. They have lived in harmony in a pen measuring around 11 metres x 5 metres with a 12 bird hen house and a 2 metre x 1.5 metre wendy house which they use for shelter/shade.

Last weekend I got six more chickens (I shall call them the youngsters for ease of reference)...2 laying brahma, 2 POL appenzeller spitzhauben, a laying light sussex and a POL barred plymouth rock, which I integrated with each other in our stable, totally separate from the established flock. That went soooo well! Barely a peck or a squabble before a clear pecking order was established, with the light sussex taking 'top spot' with no real stress or bullying.

Yesterday I took in four ex commercial layers (warren/ginger ranger types) 'rescued' from the slaughterhouse by the British Hen Welfare Trust. They came from a free-range set up, rather than a colony/battery set up, so have pretty good feathering, good colour to their combs and wattles, seemingly strong legs and are already happily eating, drinking and foraging about.

I took the youngsters AND the rescues and put them in the main pen which I have divided in half with netting. The established flock can see them all, can go beak to beak, but cannot actually 'get at' them. Again, the integration of the youngsters and the rescues has gone exceptionally well. The rescues have knocked the Sussex from top spot with a few good pecks and a bit of squawking but no real fighting and everyone has settled back down. The rescues are tending to form their own little group and the rest are keeping generally out of their way but they are sharing the space OK, everyone is happy to eat, drink, sunbathe etc. and there is a general sense of calm.

The established flock have watched with interest through the netting but made no attempt to attack or show aggression and have only made any attempt at getting through the net when I was in with the newbies, giving out dried mealworms! When the newbies have approached the netting, there has been some beak to beak exploration but no pecking or fighting.

I am shocked at how smoothly everything has gone and almost feel like there SHOULD be more trouble.

The next step is to integrate everyone, to remove the netting and see what happens but it's that bit I'm unsure of. When I have rescued ex commercial layers in the past, they have been colony birds with barely any feathers, huge flaccid pale combs, weak legs and unable to recognise layers pellets (as opposed to mash) so I have given them several weeks to gain strength and confidence before putting them with other hens and several months before allowing a cockerel near them for fear that their naked bodies would be damaged and their legs hurt by his 'attentions'.

These rescues are in good shape and are already feisty, showing the full gamut of normal hen behaviour but....do I let my established flock, including my boy, in with everyone else or do you think the rescues need more time? What about the cockerel....a fully grown adult CL....being around the youngsters? The sussex and the brahmas are of good size but the plymouth rock and the appenzellers are much smaller than he is. The appenzellers are lightning fast so may well escape any attention he attempts to give them but the rock may not be so lucky.

Sorry for the long-winded post but opinions are most welcome. After ten years of chicken keeping...this is till a new one on me! ;-)
 
Well I am not a big believer in quarantine, but you kind of make me nervous with that many new birds from several different places...however, that ship has sailed and you appear to have gotten very lucky.

5 feet x 6 feet = 30 square feet which is what your meters transcribed to, is pretty tight for 16 head. It will depend on how you have the roosting set up, and I would not add anymore birds to this flock... and it might turn out that you will need to cull birds to create a peaceful flock. Your run seems more than adequate which will help, but when it comes down to it, they all need to fit in the coop at night, and winter nights are a long time.

I find that the more birds you add, the better it goes AS LONG AS THERE IS ENOUGH SPACE. Doubling your flock may have reduced the space, but a lot depends on what the space looks like. Do you have hide outs, do you make use of the vertical space with roosts, ladders or pallets up on blocks? Do you have multiple feed stations, and can a bird eating at one station, see a bird eating at another? Check all your hideouts to make sure they have two exits so as not to make a trap.

If your run is cluttered up, I have found it helpful to lock out the old birds mid morning and putting the new birds in that set up. This lets the new birds explore with out harassment. Then letting everyone in at near dark. The urge to fight is nearly equal with the urge to roost.

Good luck, do know going into this, that while this might make a very nice flock for you, you are pushing the size of the flock with the size of the coop, and wishing they will all get along, does not always work. You might have to get more of a coop, or remove some birds. Always solve for a peaceful flock.

Mrs K
 
5 feet x 6 feet = 30 square feet which is what your meters transcribed to
I didn't see 5x6 feet anywhere...am I blind? Oh....you converted the "wendy house" dimensions.

They have lived in harmony in a pen measuring around 11 metres x 5 metres with a 12 bird hen house and a 2 metre x 1.5 metre wendy house which they use for shelter/shade.
Pen of 11 m(36') x 5m(16') is 500 sqft...lots of space.

Not sure what this means ...."12 bird hen house"... in metres or feet??

An-y-way...here's some tips on...
Integration Basics:
It's all about territory and resources(space/food/water).
Existing birds will almost always attack new ones to defend their resources.
Understanding chicken behaviors is essential to integrating new birds into your flock.

Confine new birds within sight but physically segregated from older/existing birds for several weeks, so they can see and get used to each other but not physically interact.

In adjacent runs, spread scratch grains along the dividing mesh, best if mesh is just big enough for birds to stick their head thru, so they get used to eating together.

The more space, the better.
Birds will peck to establish dominance, the pecked bird needs space to get away. As long as there's no copious blood drawn and/or new bird is not trapped/pinned down and beaten unmercilessly, let them work it out. Every time you interfere or remove new birds, they'll have to start the pecking order thing all over again.

Multiple feed/water stations. Dominance issues are most often carried out over sustenance, more stations lessens the frequency of that issue.

Places for the new birds to hide 'out of line of sight'(but not a dead end trap) and/or up and away from any bully birds. Roosts, pallets or boards leaned up against walls or up on concrete blocks, old chairs tables, branches, logs, stumps out in the run can really help. Lots of diversion and places to 'hide' instead of bare wide open run.
 
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I just did the math from meters to feet for the 30 square feet. oh I re-read, I took that as measurements of the coop, but now I wonder if that is a shelter in the run.

12 hen house is going to be tight quarters for 16 birds, which is the final count I came up with. I also took it that all the birds were full grown.

Sometimes reading and understanding is not always the same thing.:idunno

Mrs K
 
I have no idea how big a 12 bird hen house is. Size in meters could be informative. We always enjoy photos too, occasionally we see something that helps. Not just the overall layout but the inside of the coop, especially roost area. My main run is about the same size as yours. While it gives a lot more than the suggested 10 square feet per bird in the run often suggested on here, mine would look fairly crowded with 16 chickens, especially when I'm integrating.

With that said, integration often goes much smother than you expect from what you read on here. You usually read about the worst cases and the suggestions we give assume the worst case. You have had some luck but I don't think your situation so far is that unusual.

You said your cockerel is fully mature. I've had plenty of males less than a full year old that were mature so that is not a surprise. I would not worry too much with him being around POL pullets. If he is relatively calm with the hens he should be OK with them. What I'd expect to happen is that he will mate with some of the new hens when they are first introduced to welcome them to the flock. This may involve a bit of chasing if the hens don't cooperate but it is unlikely anyone will get hurt. He may do the same with a POL pullet to show his dominance but I'd not expect much of that and again I would not expect any to be really harmed. Sometimes chickens play a little rough though.

Typically my pullets form a sub-flock and avoid the adults until they start to lay. That's usually the time they mature enough to force their way into the pecking order. In addition to my main run I have an area about 15 meter x 20 meter inside electric netting so they have plenty of room to avoid the adults. That's part of why your area seems tight to me, I'm used to so much more.

I did not think a CL rooster was all that big. Are some of the females bantam?

You said you've kept chickens for 10 years so you should have seen a lot of this. I'm not sure what part of this is new to you?

My suggestion is to keep them separated by that fence for at least a week, then try letting them be together when you are around to observe. I would not be surprised if things go pretty well during the day but would expect some issues in getting them to all go into the main coop to sleep, especially the POL pullets. That may take some effort.

Good luck!
 
Ok....I'll try and get some piccies later but to clarify a few things.... the pen is 11 metres x 5 metres which is around 570 square feet. Inside of that space (not attached) is a hen house designed for 12 birds (approx 25 square feet with 12 feet in length of perch space plus the nest boxes which the brahmas ALWAYS sleep in)

There is ALSO a wendy house inside of the pen of around 30 square feet of floor space which has 12 foot of perch space.

The over-all pen is currently split into two with the youngsters and the rescues in the half that contains the henhouse (what I would see as the 'main' area usually used by the established flock.) Then the established flock is in the other half with the wendy house.

All birds have happily roosted for the past couple of nights in the perch space available to them, therefore there is sufficient space for everybody to roost at night but across two separate 'coops'. The youngsters and rescues went to bed entirely on their own in the henhouse and with very little fuss. The established flock had to be encouraged to go to bed in the wendy house as they are used to being in the henhouse so they just sat by the separating mesh, waiting to be let into their 'usual' haunt. With a little shooing and herding from me, they got the idea and the were happy to perch or sit on the floor (again, my brahmas have NEVER perched....despite much encouragement form me!)

There are three feeding stations and two water buckets in with the new birds and one of each in with the established birds. When the partition is removed to allow the final integration, this will mean a total of four feeding stations and three water stations. We do have some that are out of line of sight of the others to ensure everyone gets a chance.

There are no 'traps'....everything has free space round it so that no-one get backed into a corner but maybe I could do with a few more actual hideaways?

And @Ridgerunner ....the new bits, even after 10 years, is that I have only had my current set-up for the past two and a half years and when the cockerel went in, he was a juvenile and the girls were full sized adults.

Prior to this, my pen was at the school where I worked and it was about five times as big, with two large coops and a shed for sleeping in. Integration pretty much meant popping any newbies in and letting them get on with it because there was so much space, so many hidey holes, so many available feeders and drinkers and so many roosting options that any squabbles were few and far between and things always settled down super quick. I only did the 'see and not touch' method when I added the rescues as they were always so vulnerable....and they would remain separated for up to three months to allow their feathers to grow in and their legs to properly strengthen.

This time, I have ex commercial rescues that AREN'T pathetic, bedraggled, bald, weak-legged creatures who DEFINITELY couldn't cope with a cockerel.....therefore are they ready for one now...a full grown, mature and very 'active' cockerel of around 7.5lbs when they weigh no more than 3lb themselves?? They are full grown but they are quite thin compared to the other girls. Also, I now have POLs with a FULL GROWN cockerel in a more confined space so am also questioning this.

My concerns are not so much about the integration process itself but the amorous intentions of the cockerel towards young POLs and possibly vulnerable/stressed rescues. All the girls are Large Fowl, not bantam but the POLs and the rescues still look small compared to him. It may just be that I am used to seeing him with the huge brahmas and cochins of his established harem and I'm worrying over nothing but hey, the appenzellers are the size of pidgeons!
 
My concerns are not so much about the integration process itself but the amorous intentions of the cockerel towards young POLs and possibly vulnerable/stressed rescues. All the girls are Large Fowl, not bantam but the POLs and the rescues still look small compared to him. It may just be that I am used to seeing him with the huge brahmas and cochins of his established harem and I'm worrying over nothing but hey, the appenzellers are the size of pidgeons!

It is normal for the rooster to be heavier than the hens of the same breed. When they mate the female squats on the ground. That way the rooster's weight is transmitted into the ground through her entire body, not just her legs. It's nature's way to protect the hens.

I looked up the "normal" breed weights and don't hink you should have a problem, but that doesn't mean you don't have the extreme ends of what is a normal range of weights. The more difference there is between the rooster and hen weighs the more opportunity for problems, but many people keep bantam hens in the same flock as a standard rooster and don't have issues. Some do have issues though, with living animals you don't get guarantees. Still, with the weight ranges I saw I would not be that concerned about the weight difference.

He will mate with the hens. Whether that is by force or willingly on their part will depend on their reaction more than his. People tend to forget that the hens have a part top play in this. A good rooster should leave the POL pullets alone until they start to show signs that they are ready to lay, like bright red comb and wattles. Some roosters are better than others.
 

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