Advice please - spiral/ clan breeding programme

[Mareslee]

I've been running a spiral breeding programme with three pens for three years now, so far so good. Now, though, it is time to retire one of my roosters, the best I've had, but none of his sons are as good as him. I feel like I'm going backwards in using one of those roosters, but I think I have to, yes? Does anyone have this problem? I presume I just have to go ahead as planned - or, how do you solve this dilemma?

 

[BantyChooks]

Bumping, because I also wish to know the answer.

 

[lenadriver]

I'm trying to wrap my head around all of this, too but if you haven't produced a Roo as good, if not better than him, could it be time to bring new blood in? I'm not passing opinion, I'm asking a genuine question. Hopefully someone with some experience in this will join the conversation!

 

[Fairview01]

I think there are 2 weaknesses in this type of breeding program.

Its difficult to find the "BEST" to fill 2 pens. I don't think people have the patience to wait long enough to find the quality that should be in the 3rd pen and therefore dilutes the overall quality of the stock.

The major drawback imo is that it doesn't focus on either the sire or dam side of the line. A 2 pen system does and its easier to fill the pens.

During the first year on a 2 pen system the best rooster is paired up with 3 of the best hens. From those offspring the 3 best pullets are bred back to their sire. The first year's hens are moved to the second pen and bred to their best son, etc, etc. Each pen only focuses on one side of the breeding line. Once both pens have reached the breeders expectations the pens are merged. Because each pen is distantly related when they are merged they wont crater as badly as 2 unrelated lines. The best cockerel/ rooster from the sire side is paired with the 3 best pullets from the dam pen.

The hen contributes 50% of the genetic material. If there is not an equal focus on the dam side as on the sire side, fabulous roosters bred to lesser hens will always produce above average offspring.

Beyond the 3 pen system not being able to produce a better replacement this problem can originate from 2 sources.

The stock is inferior to begin with but aside from that it is usually not hatching enough. Producing quality stock is a numbers game. The more hatched the more is culled the better quality the survivors will be.

I set 42 eggs every 7 days when I'm hatching. Of that between 35-40 hatch. I set a minimum of 5 sets so I hatch at least 200 a year. I'm getting ready to move my first hatch to the brooder. At 6 weeks from the original 30+ that hatched there are only 7 that didn't get their necks stretched earlier. Each hatch goes through 6 weekly culls before they get moved to the coop with the first one occurring before they leave the hatcher. Out of the 200+ I hatch at 3 months I will have less than 40 growing out.

There are only 3 reasons to outcross your family - lack of early spring fertility, lack of mature size and or lack of vigor/vitality. And when the outcross is performed it should be done with a hen(s)

 

[lenadriver]

I think there are 2 weaknesses in this type of breeding program.

Its difficult to find the "BEST" to fill 2 pens. I don't think people have the patience to wait long enough to find the quality that should be in the 3rd pen and therefore dilutes the overall quality of the stock.

The major drawback imo is that it doesn't focus on either the sire or dam side of the line. A 2 pen system does and its easier to fill the pens.

During the first year on a 2 pen system the best rooster is paired up with 3 of the best hens. From those offspring the 3 best pullets are bred back to their sire. The first year's hens are moved to the second pen and bred to their best son, etc, etc. Each pen only focuses on one side of the breeding line. Once both pens have reached the breeders expectations the pens are merged. Because each pen is distantly related when they are merged they wont crater as badly as 2 unrelated lines. The best cockerel/ rooster from the sire side is paired with the 3 best pullets from the dam pen.

The hen contributes 50% of the genetic material. If there is not an equal focus on the dam side as on the sire side, fabulous roosters bred to lesser hens will always produce above average offspring.

Beyond the 3 pen system not being able to produce a better replacement this problem can originate from 2 sources.

The stock is inferior to begin with but aside from that it is usually not hatching enough. Producing quality stock is a numbers game. The more hatched the more is culled the better quality the survivors will be.

I set 42 eggs every 7 days when I'm hatching. Of that between 35-40 hatch. I set a minimum of 5 sets so I hatch at least 200 a year. I'm getting ready to move my first hatch to the brooder. At 6 weeks from the original 30+ that hatched there are only 7 that didn't get their necks stretched earlier. Each hatch goes through 6 weekly culls before they get moved to the coop with the first one occurring before they leave the hatcher. Out of the 200+ I hatch at 3 months I will have less than 40 growing out.

There are only 3 reasons to outcross your family - lack of early spring fertility, lack of mature size and or lack of vigor/vitality. And when the outcross is performed it should be done with a hen(s)

Forgive me, could you please explain the 2 flock program in more detail? What happens in years 3 & 4 and continuing? Does this mean by year 3 you are putting siblings together? Can you use a hen or rooster for more than 1 year? Sorry, I'm struggling to wrap my head around it. What your saying makes sense and it would certainly be easier to care and manage 2 flocks instead of 3, I'm just a bit confused how it works.
Thank you.

 

[Fairview01]

Forgive me, could you please explain the 2 flock program in more detail? What happens in years 3 & 4 and continuing? Does this mean by year 3 you are putting siblings together? Can you use a hen or rooster for more than 1 year? Sorry, I'm struggling to wrap my head around it. What your saying makes sense and it would certainly be easier to care and manage 2 flocks instead of 3, I'm just a bit confused how it works.
Thank you.

Think of it this way. One pen concentrates the desirable characteristics of your rooster. The sire pen. He is mated to his best daughters, granddaughters, great granddaughters, etc, etc.. Each successive generation has a greater concentration of the sire genetics and less of the original hens. If the original sire and dam were of good quality eventually one of the generations will throw a better rooster and he will displace his father, grandfather or whatever the relationship is. So yes eventually there will be sibling matings.

The dam pen is filled with the best cockerel son from the previous year and is given the original hens (mothers). In each generation the best cockerel from the hen pen replaces the one before him. This is what concentrates the genetics on the dam side. Eventually siblings will be mated just as in the sire pen.

This is nothing more than simple line breeding program with equal emphasis on the dam(hen) side.

There are 3 reasons any breeding plan fails.

1. The parent stock has absolutely no potential to produce a better bird. You dont have to break the bank to pay for show stock but it needs to be quality breeder stock that when mated could combine genetics from both parents and create a better bird.

2. The flock owner wont hatch enough and stretch enough necks to get that genetic combination. It's a genetic numbers game. The more you hatch and the more that is culled the better the offspring will be. If you aren't willing to stretch a lot of chick necks there can be no complaint about quality. Quality and culling are part of the equation.

3. More importantly than the first two is the last. People outcross way to early and the wrong way. The worst way is to bring in a rooster. The correct way is to bring in a hen or hens when an outcross is needed. A hen can not cause havoc and destroy years of work in a couple days like a rooster can. Bringing a hen in for an outcross is the slow controlled way of seeing what impact those genetics will have.

Breeders generally outcross as soon as a negative recessive gene is expressed in their flock. When these negatives show up that is an opportunity to eliminate them from the flock rather than covering them up with an outcross. When a negative recessive gene is expressed and then eliminated from the existing flock the only alternative is that it was replaced by a dominant desirable gene. Flock quality can not improve until the negative recessive genes are eliminated. They can't be eliminated until they are expressed.

 

[lenadriver]

Thank you so much. And the expression of these negative qualities will come about sooner, rather than later because of the close familial connection, as would any dominant traits of each pen?
With regards to the hens, I assume the hen stays in the flock for however many years , be it 1 or 3, until a superior hen, from that pen, replaces her?

 

[Folly's place]

Thanks for the excellent descriptions!!!
There are two books that relate to breeding issues, from slightly different angles.
"The Mating and Breeding of Poultry" by Lamon and Slocum, and
"A Conservation Breeding Handbook" by Sponenberg and Christman.
Both very useful!
My problem is in being able to hatch and raise 200+ chicks each year! It's not happening here...
Besides obvious defects, what are your criteria for such early culling? Size?
Mary

 

[Fairview01]

Thank you so much. And the expression of these negative qualities will come about sooner, rather than later because of the close familial connection, as would any dominant traits of each pen?
With regards to the hens, I assume the hen stays in the flock for however many years , be it 1 or 3, until a superior hen, from that pen, replaces her?

Not necessarily. Statistically speaking from the punnet square if each parent is heterozygous then mathematically the offspring only has a 25% chance of being homozygous for the recessive gene and expressing it. However that is the math on paper. In real life the genetic dice get rolled each time an egg is fertilized. When both parents carry the recessive gene in a heterozygous state it could take generations.

I raise LFW cornish. I had one chick with barred feathers. An obvious disqualification. 300+ chicks later it still has yet to show up again.

Yup. Same on the rooster pen. When the sire produces a superior son the father is displaced. But no switching between the 2 UNLESS it's the obvious thing to do. Both pens are related.

 

[Fairview01]

Thanks for the excellent descriptions!!!
There are two books that relate to breeding issues, from slightly different angles.
"The Mating and Breeding of Poultry" by Lamon and Slocum, and
"A Conservation Breeding Handbook" by Sponenberg and Christman.
Both very useful!
My problem is in being able to hatch and raise 200+ chicks each year! It's not happening here...
Besides obvious defects, what are your criteria for such early culling? Size?
Mary

Believe me I do not have the room to grow out 100 chicks less alone the 300 I hatched this year. Even if I did I would never dedicate that much to the feed bills.

My entire goal is to be in the winners circle when the show is over. The SOP for my breed provides me my culling guidelines.

During the first 6 weeks every chick of any breed will start displaying most if not all of the desirable characteristics listed in the SOP. By the end of six weeks they will be a miniature of what they will turn out to be at maturity. Bad chicks dont grow into winners and good chicks dont lose the desirable characteristics and grow into bad ones.

2 examples.

I raise heritage LF cornish. Cornish are considered and should be the supreme meat bird of all meat birds. The day after hatch before I move them to the brooder I look down into the drawer. I remove the smallest 10-20% and stretch their necks. That's no less than 3-6 out of a hatch of between 30-40. Yes they will get bigger but at maturity they will be smaller than the others. I do this again 7 days. Some will argue I might be destroying some good pullets. Probably I am but I'm confident in the remaining 20 there's a few big pullets reamaining. I wont retain or increase size by using smaller birds than I currently have no matter how close they are to the SOP.

The second example is that the line created by the cornish will allow a hypothetical drop of water started at the back of the head to run down the neck and back and fall off the tip of the last tail feather. At around 4 weeks they have some good feathers coming in. I will take them out and put them in a display box and look at them at eye level. At 4 weeks if those tail feathers are breaking the horizontal I stretch their necks right then. It doesn't matter how many molts that particular bird goes through the orientation of those tail feathers will never change.

Everything you want to see in your adult bird by the SOP can be seen in our chicks during the first 6 weeks. If they dont have it then they aren't going to have it or grow into it later.