fermenting feed...looking for info

[Amastacia]

i have seen a lot of people talk about using fermented feed, and i'm sure there is a long, detailed thread around here somewhere telling all about it, but i haven't been able to find it (i have a terrible time searching forums). i'm basically looking for why, how and what. a link to helpful threads would be welcome too.

thanks.

 

[taylynnp]

I think this is one of the main threads on fermenting feed. It's found in the raising meat birds but eventually they talk about using it for other chicks and layers. Bee gives a lot of input there. And yes, it's quite long.



https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/644300/fermenting-feed-for-meat-birds

I started my chicks on it in the first couple of days. I simply put the starter in a bucket with water and a slug of raw apple cider vinegar with the mother. I set the lid on the bucket but don't tighten it. Whenever I get feed out I stir it and drain some off for the chicks. It will start to bubble a little and that's how you know it's fermenting.

Because the starter is all crumbles, it doesn't drain very well in my two bucket system. My drain holes would have to be bigger. So I use a colander and a slotted plastic spoon. I imagine it will be fine once I move to feed that is larger pieces.

I ferment my feed so that it is more easily digestible. If they get more nutrients out of the feed, they won't need to eat as much. That saves money in the long run!

Also fermented foods provide healthy gut flora.

If anyone is nervous about "fermenting" you could simply soak a day's worth of feed in plain water. Drain and then discard the water. Soaking any grains makes the nutrients more bioavailable and reduces anti nutrients.

People do that with their own food if they are following more of a traditional foods diet. Some soak oatmeal, flour, and so on.

 

[WoodlandWoman]

What I always wonder is how this process affects the vitamins that have been added to the processed feed. For chickens that are free ranging or eating other foods, this is less of an issue. I would be concerned about pouring off soak water that might contain vitamin A, for instance. I wonder if any of the vitamins in the feed are degraded by this process. I would think some of the carbs in the feed are consumed by the culture, which is normal in cultured foods, but the organisms also have a positive affect in other ways, so it works out. I'm still concerned about the affect on the vitamins in the feed.

When I first came back to BYC after I had to be away, I heard about FF for the first time. I'd never heard or read about it before. The information mainly seemed to be coming from one individual's web site when I googled it and I haven't found any more scientific web sites to answer these questions. If anyone here can answer my questions, that would be great.

Also, I haven't read the thread in the meaties section, yet. I don't usually hang out in that section and didn't realize that's where it started. I only became aware of it in the feed section. I can try to read the other thread, if the information I need is in that thread.

 

[taylynnp]

http://www.cheeseslave.com/got-bacteria-10-reasons-to-eat-fermented-foods/

http://www.kitchenstewardship.com/2009/11/30/soaking-whole-grains-why-do-it/


http://wholelifestylenutrition.com/...ry-and-how-to-properly-soak-and-prepare-them/

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/video-proper-preparation-of-grains-and-legumes/

Have you ever heard of silage? It's fermented feed for livestock. It's a very common practice not something invented on BYC.

If you read through the FF thread in the meaties section, I believe there were links to studies and articles on fermented feed.

 

[WoodlandWoman]

Those are nice links.

I've been growing my own sprouts and culturing my own yogurt since the 70s, plus my grandmother that came over from Germany made her own sauerkraut, pickles and wine. I've also made my own wine and beer. I do have a basic understanding of fermented foods, cultured foods, sprouting, probiotics and prebiotics. I also have family and neighbors that own dairy farms, so I know what silage is. I don't mean that I know more than everyone else, I'm just saying that I have a basic familiarity with these topics.

What I don't have a familiarity of is what seems to be the newer (to me) practice of fermenting processed chicken feed. What I was trying to say is that I am wondering about the fermenting of processed chicken feed. It's not like a whole food, with vitamins contained within the tissues. It's basically finely ground and powdered foods that are mixed with added vitamins and minerals, to make a somewhat complete diet, then formed. If you add water to it, it disintegrates back into the preformed stage. Minerals will be at the bottom, with the feed. I'm wondering about the vitamins that may have been released from the food at that point, particularly the vitamin A in the food. Is that just free floating in the water or on top of the water? Does it get consumed or just stay in the liquid portion? Vitamins are lost from even fresh vegetables in a short time, so I am wondering what the loss would be in fermented processed feed. Plus, if soak water is poured off, I have concerns that those vitamins are lost.

For people that free range or feed other vegetable matter, the chickens have other sources of vitamins and it's not a big deal either way. I'm just wondering about chickens that don't get any other food at all. When I first joined this site, a lot of people didn't even believe that chickens could digest the wheat grass I was feeding them. I naturally wonder about the affect on chickens that only eat a processed feed long term, if the vitamin balance is off.

When I get time, I'll read the full meaties thread and look for this information.

 

[taylynnp]

Ah, I understand what you mean now since it's a processed feed that has been ground instead of whole foods. That is something to consider, especially since plant based vitamin A for example is water soluble.

I will say that there is still a lot of water in my FF when I scoop it out. So presumably if any of the vitamins are free floating in the ferment liquid the chickens are still getting some as well as in the liquid that the ground dry material absorbs.

I think that's a good question to post in that ferment feed thread I linked above. It might get more attention than this one since so many people are subscribed to that thread. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can weigh in.

I tried to search quickly for some research articles in that thread but it's been a busy day. One that I found was here https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/644300/fermenting-feed-for-meat-birds/4890

It talked about the benefits of feeding fermented liquid in broilers which happens to have a short life span. So who knows if a vitamin deficiency would have come up with a chicken that lives longer? The other study was on corn silage and layers. Perhaps that was whole kernel corn though so it wouldn't answer your question about processed mash.

I do know that many, many BYC owners feel that they are having success with FF and are using less feed than dry. I would think that if a chicken was deficient in nutrients they would be eating more feed rather than less.

I will say that I do plan to sprout grains or even do microgreens/fodder for my chickens to go along with FF. That maybe one way to help round out the diet. Or maybe some milk kefir?

Those are nice links.

I've been growing my own sprouts and culturing my own yogurt since the 70s, plus my grandmother that came over from Germany made her own sauerkraut, pickles and wine. I've also made my own wine and beer. I do have a basic understanding of fermented foods, cultured foods, sprouting, probiotics and prebiotics. I also have family and neighbors that own dairy farms, so I know what silage is. I don't mean that I know more than everyone else, I'm just saying that I have a basic familiarity with these topics.

What I don't have a familiarity of is what seems to be the newer (to me) practice of fermenting processed chicken feed. What I was trying to say is that I am wondering about the fermenting of processed chicken feed. It's not like a whole food, with vitamins contained within the tissues. It's basically finely ground and powdered foods that are mixed with added vitamins and minerals, to make a somewhat complete diet, then formed. If you add water to it, it disintegrates back into the preformed stage. Minerals will be at the bottom, with the feed. I'm wondering about the vitamins that may have been released from the food at that point, particularly the vitamin A in the food. Is that just free floating in the water or on top of the water? Does it get consumed or just stay in the liquid portion? Vitamins are lost from even fresh vegetables in a short time, so I am wondering what the loss would be in fermented processed feed. Plus, if soak water is poured off, I have concerns that those vitamins are lost.

For people that free range or feed other vegetable matter, the chickens have other sources of vitamins and it's not a big deal either way. I'm just wondering about chickens that don't get any other food at all. When I first joined this site, a lot of people didn't even believe that chickens could digest the wheat grass I was feeding them. I naturally wonder about the affect on chickens that only eat a processed feed long term, if the vitamin balance is off.

When I get time, I'll read the full meaties thread and look for this information.