Floating wheaten (mossiness) in BCM breed

[theuglychick]

Hi all, it’s been a long time since I’ve logged in and posted. I’ve been lurking for a while, though.

I wanted to pose a question to other BCM breeders because I’ve seen this topic come up a few times with very strong opinions towards the gene- mossiness (aka floating wheaten).

I apologize about the length of this, but I overthink and overshare everything. Sorry, not sorry.

Also, I’m not a eugenics purist who culls every little thing that’s not typical or correct for the breed. I believe in genetic health and diversity while still striving to maintain type.

I’ve been breeding BCMs for 8-9 years. I started with a few birds and continuously worked to breed for egg color and breeding to the French standard of perfection.

I’ve added some pretty nice (expensive) birds to keep genetics somewhat diverse and fairly healthy while improving egg color. (I’ve incorporated Mashburn lines as well as Akers lines. There’s also a few local breeders with nice birds I’ve added.)

That being said, I’ve had not-great luck with these expensive breeder-produced birds. I buy them as chicks, raise them to juveniles, but many don’t make it to adulthood when introduced into my flock. The ones to at do make it end up producing weird traits like rumplessness. That was a fun one to get rid of.

I free range my birds and breed for resistance. They are exposed and resistant to a bunch of things those with more closed and controlled flocks are not. So having those birds die en masse isn’t all that surprising to me. But it is frustrating. And expensive.

To compare, chicks from my own line have excellent hatch rates and I’ve not lost any to disease as of yet. Not saying that to brag, but just point out disease isn’t my issue. It would only be an issue if everything, or most everything I was hatching and raising was dying of disease.

My issue is that I’ve backcrossed my own line to a point that I want to outcross to a less related line to keep genetics healthy. I’m not seeing any issues, but I also don’t want to see issues down the road. So my own line now has a fairly high inbreeding coefficient.

I’d like to remedy that with bringing in new genetics. However, I’m not satisfied with the fragile immunity of the birds I’m getting from other breeders that are kept in sterile environments (I understand that’s a requirement for NPIP certification, not knocking it, but it does not help with immunity in the real world).

So, in a bout of frustration, I purchased some hatchery stock birds because I believe they are at least a little more genetically diverse. After all, I don’t think hatcheries are culling like a show breeder does. Plus I’m not convinced they don’t mix in other layer genetics. And although it will be like starting over in some respects, I feel better about opening my own programs gene pool.

I prize genetics and health over breeding perfect cookie-cutter show specimens. (For reference, I raised Cream Legbars for about seven years before and during starting with Marans and sort of became a tinsy bit neurotic about genetic health of heritage chickens because at the time I raised the Legbars they were not genetically healthy). So, for me, healthy, conformationally correct birds that lay dark eggs and breed true is what I am going for.

BUT… in all the years I’ve raised BCMs, I’ve never produced a mossy chick or hen. And I hatch and grow out dozens of chicks a year. I know that’s not an enormous sample size, some of you have a much larger operations, for me it’s just a hobby. But I think after almost 9 years of breeding BCMs, if my birds produced the mossy color, I would likely have seen it by now. (But then again, recessive genes, amiright?)

(Side note: I will say, I prefer darker birds. While I try to breed to the SOP, my preference is to hatch more eggs from hens that have a little less copper than what the standard calls for. They just seem to lay the darkest eggs. Some of them barely have any copper. Idk if this has anything to do with not seeing mossiness in my birds, but I’m just throwing that out there.)

However, some of the hatchery pullets are now four-five months old and feathering out fairly (almost shockingly) mossy. One came to us basically brown and has yet to feather out black. Instead, it seems to be getting worse.

Now, here’s where I’m questioning which way to go. Do I cull those four obviously mossy pullets (as in rehome as Easter Eggers, not kill, I’m not that hardcore) and go forward with my plan to introduce this outcrossed hatchery line?

I suspect that even if I cull those and keep only pullets without mossy phenotype, the mossy genotype is still there. It’s recessive, after all. Just lurking.

I read some (IMO ridiculous) opinions where breeders slammed other breeders for not disclosing their lines have mossy genetics. And I’m like, do these people not realize how recessive genes work? They may not even known it was in there. It might not have shown up until just now. As in my case. And I get that it’s absolutely not correct for the breed. I see that others say the floating wheaten gene (responsible for mossiness) is in all American lines and we just have to basically breed around it. Or try to eliminate it.

I work in the purebred dog industry and I work closely with geneticists and I can tell you that you cannot completely eliminate a recessive gene from a population without a test that identifies the gene and animals that are clear, carriers, and affected. A genetic test for floating wheaten does not exist as of today (I checked). (I told you I was a tad neurotic.) So I can’t help but think that, without a genetic test for the gene, eliminating the gene is a noble (yet ridiculous) endeavor.

But since I have yet to see floating wheaten in my line, I don’t really want to introduce it if it isn’t already lurking, waiting to jump out and offend some other breeder with better birds. So I recognize it’s an issue.

I’m leaning towards just making the hatchery inclusion a side project and continuing to look for other lines to breed into my lines with low incidence of floating wheaten. The way I see it, the hatchery-inclusion project eggs won’t be suitably dark for several generations anyway and years anyway, so I could just offer culls as Easter Eggers and see where it goes.

All this is to ask… how are you handling this gene in your own lines and breeding programs? What are your recommendations?

 

[2ndTink]

Let me tag a couple people for you @BlueTheBrahma @wrathsfarm

 

[wrathsfarm]

Let me tag a couple people for you @BlueTheBrahma @wrathsfarm

I just cull when I see mossiness. I've noticed minimal will sometimes molt out but excessive usually doesn't. I like your commitment to your Marans, pretty passionate about my two varieties as well.

My opinion on getting hatchery stock tho, is I think it's a bad move. Your trying to eliminate mossiness and bring in new genetics, but you may also ingest a whole new set of problems as hatcheries are more concentrated on the dollar sign and not concentrating on the breeds SOP. Introducing bad body structure, halos, black eyes, squirrel tails and parasitic white to name just a few you may encounter and struggle to breed back out. I would research the dedicated breeders who are committed in the breed standard.

Wish you all the best with your Marans.

 

[2ndTink]

I can't speak on the Marans genetics, but I wonder if you could find Marans breeders with the same goals as you? I think your breeding goals are great.

Maybe you could reach out to a few breeders and see if they do the same free ranging, more survival of the fittest, style that you do. Ask the questions before paying an arm and a leg for eggs.

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

Hi all, it’s been a long time since I’ve logged in and posted. I’ve been lurking for a while, though.

I wanted to pose a question to other BCM breeders because I’ve seen this topic come up a few times with very strong opinions towards the gene- mossiness (aka floating wheaten).

I apologize about the length of this, but I overthink and overshare everything. Sorry, not sorry.

Also, I’m not a eugenics purist who culls every little thing that’s not typical or correct for the breed. I believe in genetic health and diversity while still striving to maintain type.

I’ve been breeding BCMs for 8-9 years. I started with a few birds and continuously worked to breed for egg color and breeding to the French standard of perfection.

I’ve added some pretty nice (expensive) birds to keep genetics somewhat diverse and fairly healthy while improving egg color. (I’ve incorporated Mashburn lines as well as Akers lines. There’s also a few local breeders with nice birds I’ve added.)

That being said, I’ve had not-great luck with these expensive breeder-produced birds. I buy them as chicks, raise them to juveniles, but many don’t make it to adulthood when introduced into my flock. The ones to at do make it end up producing weird traits like rumplessness. That was a fun one to get rid of.

I free range my birds and breed for resistance. They are exposed and resistant to a bunch of things those with more closed and controlled flocks are not. So having those birds die en masse isn’t all that surprising to me. But it is frustrating. And expensive.

To compare, chicks from my own line have excellent hatch rates and I’ve not lost any to disease as of yet. Not saying that to brag, but just point out disease isn’t my issue. It would only be an issue if everything, or most everything I was hatching and raising was dying of disease.

My issue is that I’ve backcrossed my own line to a point that I want to outcross to a less related line to keep genetics healthy. I’m not seeing any issues, but I also don’t want to see issues down the road. So my own line now has a fairly high inbreeding coefficient.

I’d like to remedy that with bringing in new genetics. However, I’m not satisfied with the fragile immunity of the birds I’m getting from other breeders that are kept in sterile environments (I understand that’s a requirement for NPIP certification, not knocking it, but it does not help with immunity in the real world).

So, in a bout of frustration, I purchased some hatchery stock birds because I believe they are at least a little more genetically diverse. After all, I don’t think hatcheries are culling like a show breeder does. Plus I’m not convinced they don’t mix in other layer genetics. And although it will be like starting over in some respects, I feel better about opening my own programs gene pool.

I prize genetics and health over breeding perfect cookie-cutter show specimens. (For reference, I raised Cream Legbars for about seven years before and during starting with Marans and sort of became a tinsy bit neurotic about genetic health of heritage chickens because at the time I raised the Legbars they were not genetically healthy). So, for me, healthy, conformationally correct birds that lay dark eggs and breed true is what I am going for.

BUT… in all the years I’ve raised BCMs, I’ve never produced a mossy chick or hen. And I hatch and grow out dozens of chicks a year. I know that’s not an enormous sample size, some of you have a much larger operations, for me it’s just a hobby. But I think after almost 9 years of breeding BCMs, if my birds produced the mossy color, I would likely have seen it by now. (But then again, recessive genes, amiright?)

(Side note: I will say, I prefer darker birds. While I try to breed to the SOP, my preference is to hatch more eggs from hens that have a little less copper than what the standard calls for. They just seem to lay the darkest eggs. Some of them barely have any copper. Idk if this has anything to do with not seeing mossiness in my birds, but I’m just throwing that out there.)

However, some of the hatchery pullets are now four-five months old and feathering out fairly (almost shockingly) mossy. One came to us basically brown and has yet to feather out black. Instead, it seems to be getting worse.

Now, here’s where I’m questioning which way to go. Do I cull those four obviously mossy pullets (as in rehome as Easter Eggers, not kill, I’m not that hardcore) and go forward with my plan to introduce this outcrossed hatchery line?

I suspect that even if I cull those and keep only pullets without mossy phenotype, the mossy genotype is still there. It’s recessive, after all. Just lurking.

I read some (IMO ridiculous) opinions where breeders slammed other breeders for not disclosing their lines have mossy genetics. And I’m like, do these people not realize how recessive genes work? They may not even known it was in there. It might not have shown up until just now. As in my case. And I get that it’s absolutely not correct for the breed. I see that others say the floating wheaten gene (responsible for mossiness) is in all American lines and we just have to basically breed around it. Or try to eliminate it.

I work in the purebred dog industry and I work closely with geneticists and I can tell you that you cannot completely eliminate a recessive gene from a population without a test that identifies the gene and animals that are clear, carriers, and affected. A genetic test for floating wheaten does not exist as of today (I checked). (I told you I was a tad neurotic.) So I can’t help but think that, without a genetic test for the gene, eliminating the gene is a noble (yet ridiculous) endeavor.

But since I have yet to see floating wheaten in my line, I don’t really want to introduce it if it isn’t already lurking, waiting to jump out and offend some other breeder with better birds. So I recognize it’s an issue.

I’m leaning towards just making the hatchery inclusion a side project and continuing to look for other lines to breed into my lines with low incidence of floating wheaten. The way I see it, the hatchery-inclusion project eggs won’t be suitably dark for several generations anyway and years anyway, so I could just offer culls as Easter Eggers and see where it goes.

All this is to ask… how are you handling this gene in your own lines and breeding programs? What are your recommendations?

When you say floating wheaten, are you suggesting they are E^R/E^Wh or is just a term for mossiness I’ve never heard of? Most cases of mossiness I know of are due to the expression of phaeomelanin due to excess production because of autosomal red or a weakness in eumelanin production, even in E^R/E^R birds.

This means it’s more complex than a single recessive gene, at least from my understanding. Cockerels are less likely to show it because they use the latent Phaeomelanin up in their more excessive copper parts. The E^R allele doesn’t code for as much expression of copper in hens, even if her modifying genes promote phaeomelanin production, meaning it’s left latent in black feathers if they don’t have the strength of eumelanin to mask it

This means, since your line has never shown it, the genes could integrate into the bloodline without much issue, as the genotype of your line copes well with the excessive phaeomelanin production. This is a gamble though. I’d judge your new pullets for quality overall and only consider the cross if they look to be complimentary to your line in type or egg colour. Of course, you can always experiment.

You may have been lucky/dedicated and have removed most genetic problems from your line. Poultry have a much lower incidence of genetic issues due to inbreeding compared to mammals, so while it may seem harmful to keep a closed line, sometimes it’s actually healthier than breeding in the disorders of other bloodlines. Clan breeding can be useful to ensuring the long term viability of a closed flock, also for gradually sorting disorders out if you do outcross them.