Help... chicks are dying

[mybella1013]

I am brand new at chickens, please forgive my ignoranance....
The baby chicks are dying. The seem like they are paralized on one side and cant stand up. When they try they fall over. Also the neck is not strong. They will eat and drink. I dont know what kind of chicks they are. They are 4-5 weeks old. Thank you to anyone that can help.

 

[onthespot]

It sounds like Marek's disease. Do a search on here for that and you will find a LOT of threads and information. Sorry about your chicks.

Welcome to BYC

 

[mybella1013]

thankyoy........

 

[threehorses]

First, so that we can most accurately help you, we need a big of flock history. Could you please read the questions in the second sticky post in this forum, and then answer those questions here in this thread?

Also, please tell us the following:

What is the brooder temperature? Are the babies huddling together, or spread out evenly, or tend to stand near the edges of the brooder?
Are the babies near older birds - in the same room, etc? Do you have another flock?

Are the babies from a hatchery, a feedstore that buys from a hatchery, or from a private breeder?

Are you feeding a feed medicated specifically with Amprolium? Is it grower? Or starter grower? Is it 95% of their diet, or are their additional foodstuffs?

When the sticky asks for weight, they also mean the feel of their weight. In other words, pick each chick up. Are their keel bones sharp, or are they weighty chicks? Do they have droppings sticking near their vent?

Smell your feed. Can you smell a strong fresh smell? Or is it a bit like the smell of the bag? How do you store your feed? In what quantity did you buy it? What brand?

Have you been using anything in the water? Any other products?

Then finally, please tell us every condition with your babies. If they're in a brooder outside, has it been rainy? Do they spill their water into their bedding? What bedding or flooring? Everything that seems insignificant is actually important. Sometimes the smallest pieces of a puzzle are the ones that finish the picture for you.

All of the questions I've asked are asked specifically to rule out something that I have in mind. So I ask you to please be patient and answer each one thoroughly. (I don't give grades heheh Everyone passes if you just answer all the questions clearly.) Please think for a monent before you send the final answers just in case something pops up that you remember.

In the mean time, in any case where you have stressed or ill birds, then you should boost their nutrition to give their bodies some fuel with which to fight the illness. It also boosts their immune system, which is always good.

First, continue feedint them grower crumbles. First thing in the morning, first meal, make a damp mash of the following:

Crumbles
Water (1/4th cup) and plain yogurt (2 heaping teaspoons) mixed together in a cup
Boiled egg yolk mashed with a little water til it's a paste. (Save the portion of yolk that you don't use in the freezer for later).
Mix those together til the crumbles are barely moist. Let it sit. You want to make it just so wet that you can ball up a bit in your hand and it will stick, but if you drop it back into a bowl it'll fall apart into crumbley clumps - not glops. You can always add water - but can't take it away.

If you feed that first thing in the morning, they'll eat it more readily.

Also please buy Enfamil baby vitamins (PolyViSol, not the added iron formula). I got mine at Walmart in the vitamins section. Two drops per baby per day for 3 weeks or until symptoms decrease (or until different symptoms pop up indicating something else).

The reason I recommend vitamins like this individually fed is that they contain oil-vitamins which do best when given in food, not water, and eaten quickly because vitamins degrade quickly in light. (Which is why they're in dark bottles.) So you KNOW they're getting the vitamins.

Many vitamin deficiencies cause these symptoms. Riboflavin, D3 (calcium/rickets), A deficiencies, etc. All of those vitamins are in Enfamil in a very bioavailable form. IF this is a deficiency, it will help not harm - and might get them improving. (You have to give it a few days - it takes time to develop, it takes time to fix.) If it's not a deficiency then the supportive nutrition will be important.

I look forward to your reply with the answers to the above. Thank you for putting the effort into it so we can put the effort back into helping you.

 

[mybella1013]

1) What type of bird , age and weight.
Unknow the type. 4 -5 weeks old.

2) What is the behavior, exactly.
This sis the second chick. Both displayed the same sym. Appeared to be fine and then the next day the chick is unable to stand up and walk. One side appears to be paralized and the neck not to strong. Trys to get up. The chick will chirp and will eat and drink if able to get to the water/food which I have asssted them on.

3) Is there any bleeding, injury, broken bones or other sign of trauma.
None

4) What happened, if anything that you know of, that may have caused the situation.
unknown

5) What has the bird been eating and drinking, if at all.
Starter and regular water

6) How does the poop look? Normal? Bloody? Runny? etc.
medium soft no blood

7) What has been the treatment you have administered so far?
Aisolated the chick and check him out gave fresh water and food.

8 ) What is your intent as far as treatment? For example, do you want to treat completely yourself, or do you need help in stabilizing the bird til you can get to a vet?
Treat myself.

9) If you have a picture of the wound or condition, please post it. It may help.
None

10) Describe the housing/bedding in use.
Hay

What is the brooder temperature?
Hot I live in Houston

Are the babies huddling together, or spread out evenly, or tend to stand near the edges of the brooder?
Spread out

Are the babies near older birds - in the same room, etc?
yes

Do you have another flock?
I have older chickens

Are the babies from a hatchery, a feedstore that buys from a hatchery, or from a private breeder?
The eggs were laid by another chicken that was killer by an animal 2 days after they were laid. The eggs were not discovered for 24 hours so they were left cold. We brought them home and one of our chickens adopted them.


Are you feeding a feed medicated specifically with Amprolium? Is it grower? Or starter grower? yes

Is it 95% of their diet, or are their additional foodstuffs?
95%

When the sticky asks for weight, they also mean the feel of their weight. In other words, pick each chick up. Are their keel bones sharp, or are they weighty chicks? I dont know what a keel bone is. He is bony
Do they have droppings sticking near their vent?
no

Smell your feed. Can you smell a strong fresh smell?
fresh
How do you store your feed?
In a plastic container in the garage

In what quantity did you buy it?
25 lb

What brand?
I dont have the bag so I can tell.

Have you been using anything in the water? Any other products?
no

Then finally, please tell us every condition with your babies. If they're in a brooder outside, has it been rainy?
yes outside and no rain
Do they spill their water into their bedding?
no
What bedding or flooring?
hay

 

[threehorses]

KK I'll give this a good read tonight and we'll see what's going on.

Thank you for all the work you put into the reply! It's greatly appriciated.

 

[mybella1013]

threehores........... any idea yet?

 

[threehorses]

OK so here's our flock history:
-------
The effected flock is one of 4-5 week old chicks who are thriving, and suddenly become weak with flaccid paralysis, a limber neck. They are still interested in living and trying to eat/drink but will only do so if the food/water is brought to them. They've been in this location since hatch under the hen of the owner, not related to the birds. The genetic mother of the babies is of unknown vertical disease origins.

The flock is given amprolium medicated starter and water and are being bedding on hay. They've been exposed to older chickens, and the birds are not vaccinated as they're "home grown". The brooder is unheated as it's unnecessary in the climate of the brooder, although there might be additional issues of too much heat as the same environment has been under a heat advisory.

The effected bird seems to be emaciated, but no pasty vent. The feed itself is fresh smelling, though stored in the garage which means we need to address its temperature of keep. It's a small bag so at least it will turn over well.
--------

First, because of exposure to an adult flock with an unknown medical history, we cannot yet rule out Marek's. Before you get upset, not being able to rule something out does not mean that's the problem with the flock. It's just simply a possibility that has to be considered if, after treatments to try to correct a possible other problem fail, must be considered. It must also be considered if other symptoms that point directly to Marek's happen.

Let's just think positive and hope they won't.

My first two thoughs are this: Emaciation means malnutrition (though not at all purposeful because the flock is getting the correct feed). Malnutrition means nutritional deficiencies. Nutritional deficiencies very often result in paralysis of varying forms.

These birds are still continuing to want to eat, which is good.

There's no other indication of some other type of disease - yet. The birds aren't kept on wet bedding, and the chance of botulism is unlikely. I'm going to assume (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that because there was no spillage of water in the bedding, that we can also assume that these babies have not gotten wet soured feed. For that reason, botulism is of little significance in my mind in this case.

Mareks is not ruled out, but neither is it treatable (although in some cases I've heard that vaccinating at the first appearance of symptoms can reverse symptoms but I don't think that's practical in this case because of time constraints).

The highest on my list is nutritional deficiencies. Because it cannot at all be ruled out, and several factors are pointing towards it, and because the treatment of it would be the supportive treatment that is called for any way, I would treat them as if it's nutritional deficiency and wait for more symptoms to occur.

You will want to do ALL of this - because each step is one piece of a puzzle that needs to remain whole to be effective.

**First, isolate the baby that is ill in case others pick on him. IF he can have a meek little smallest buddy with him without being pecked on, I would highly recommend it as that will keep up his interesting in life.

** Second start a new nutritional treatment until the symptoms have abated for 2 weeks, or until 2 weeks without any change in symptoms. Slow progress is still progress.

** Third, remove the feed container from the garage (unless it's a very very cool garage) and place it in a cool place, say inside. Feed kept in warm (much less hot) conditions loses its nutritional efficacy. If you have little enough feed that you could replace it and keep the new food in a cool place from the start, I would ^highly^ recommend it.

**Fourth, make sure that the heat conditions of the brooder area are not TOO hot, and that there is plenty of ventilation and moving air in the coop though not blowing directly on the babies. I live in Houston, too, and it's just murderous right now. (Heat index for yesterday was 112 in the shade.)

OK the rest of the steps are self-explainatory, but here's a plan for nutrition.

Feed the babies free choice crumbles throughout the day, but make sure that they have enough to where they run out over night. That makes them hungrier for their first feeding of the day.

First feeding of the day, feed them a wet mash with the ingredients listed below. Make sure every bird gets his fair share, which means you'll have to watch them. If there's a hog, pick him up and put him in a little box til the others get food. Repeat with additional hogs.

(There's always one or two in the group.) Their water can be plain water, or you can use water with a little organic apple cider vinegar in it for the potassium and to keep the "slime" down in the waterers. (The biofilm, slime, contains bacteria which are not great for babies.) The OACV will also add good bacteria to the gut, keep bad bacteria out of their water, add enzymes for better nutritional absorbtion.

The mash should be made more dry than you think and then the water/yogurt added to make it more wet to taste. You can add water, but you can't take it out.

Wet part of wet mash:

1/4 cup of water
2 tablespoons of yogurt
1/4th a boiled (not scrambled) egg yolk mashed in some water til it's a paste. (Freeze the rest of the egg yolk in slices for later use).
Mix together. Refrigerate what you don't use for a couple of days.

PolyViSol (to be added at the last minute)

Dry part of the mash:
Your starter crumbles.

Just before feeding, mix just the amount you need of the two together thoroughly. Mix in equal proportions. If you use 3 teaspoons of the wet part, use three teaspoons of the dry. Let it set (in a cool place) for 5 minutes. You can always add a little water to it later.

The best consistency seems to be not-sticky - just moistened til the crumbles get softer. My babies don't like sticky, most don't.

So measure out a teaspoon or two for each chick. Then for each chick, you will either add this to the mash, and mix thoroughly: 2 drops of Enfamil PolyViSol baby vitamins (the formula without added iron, found in the vitamins section of Walmart, CVS, etc). Alternately, if you can, you can give those directly to each baby (recommended) by dropping at the crack in the side of their beak.



Why these ingredients?
Yogurt: adds calcium and vitamin D to the diet. The living bacteria within it make B vitamins, including riboflavin. Riboflavin is very often indicated in paralysis in growing young poultry. The living bacteria are literally the workers that digest and make absorbable the feeds you feed your bird. Additionally, by the action of competition and enzyme secretion, they ward off bad bacteria and harmful fungi/yeasts which cause disease. There's a bit of protein in yogurt. Using yogurt, versus milk, gives LOW lactose and high bacterial activity. (Milk has no good bacteria.)

Egg yolk: they were designed to grow a chicken. It's one of the most nutritionally dense foods ever. There is good fat, protein, minerals, everything to really super-boost nutrition for healing.

PolyViSol: vitamins are essential to birds, especially the oil-vitamins A, D, and E which are also the most easily degraded vitamins in feed. They're best given with a food, not in water, for maximum potential of absorbtion. They are also best not exposed to light (which is why vitamins come in light-preventing bottles) which is why I never get them in water if I really need to use them. PolyViSol also contains a healthy dose of Riboflavin, so your babies don't have to wait for the bacteria to make it.

Do that for no less than two weeks.

Summary:
Morning: wet mash daily of yogurt, egg yolk, crumbles - first feed. Then free-choice crumbles all day long.
Daily: polyvisol - 2 drops per baby either in beak or in mash
Daily: fresh water or OACV water.
Correct feed storage possible issues.
Watch for additional symptoms and report immediately.
Separate baby or put with another buddy.
Make sure they all eat - help them to if they don't.

Please feel free to email me with ANY questions, and I really would like you to let me know how the babies are doing. I'm in Houston, too, and can help you locate stuff - or just show support.

 

[mybella1013]

Thank you ever so much...

 

[threehorses]

You're very welcome. Let us know how the little ones are doing, will you please?