Hen sick - possibly tuberculosis?

[Chicken Lass]

Hi everyone, I'm brand new and I'm glad I joined because it looks like there are a lot of knowledgeable people here. I have a sick hen named Sheila who's been ill for about two months with very gradual symptoms. First she started losing a few feathers and looking scraggly. Then she became less active and hanging away from the others. Her poop was yellowish diarrhea. She lost weight and now she is emaciated with a prominent keel. Despite this she has a great appetite and drinks plenty of water. Her comb is pale and shriveled up and drooped flat over. Lately she's been standing like a penguin. Her spirits are still up despite all this mess and I have been giving her all kinds of treats that I thought might fatten her up. I tried antibiotics, and then wormer, both to no avail. I lost two pretty old hens to almost the exact symptoms earlier in Jan/Feb, but Sheila is only a bit over 2. I was worried that it might be avian tuberculosis but her poop changes from yellow to green on different days and I'm not sure if it's always diarrhea - it's always so dinky, like she's hardly eaten anything, even though I've seen her wolf down good amounts. I'm concerned about the rest of my flock gradually getting what she has. After trying to contact a few different vets I decided to try here. Thanks to anyone who can offer me advice! I love my chickens very much!

 

[threehorses]

Could you please answer into this thread the questions from the second sticky post in this forum? That will help us learn more about her weight (thin or fat, not the grams), her diet, flock history, etc.

Since these are adult hens, are they eating a laying pellet or crumble as 95% of their diet? Are they getting oyster shell as well as granite grit? Are they having any laying issues?

First thing I'd like to see rule out is shell-less eggs because of a lack of calcium. Also, reduce the treats and concentrate on her complete feed. Make sure it's fresh - smells strongly fresh when you open the bag, stored cool and dark, used before the month is up. If you give treats, make them count: yogurt (1 tablespoon per bird) for the good bacteria and D3 for the calcium. Cooked eggs (without shells) for their nutrients.

What did you use for antibiotics, how much, how long?
What did you use for wormer, how much, and did you repeat?

The droppings are a big clue. Do they look like egg yolk? OR do they just look sulfur colored?

Have you considered taking this bird to a vet?

 

[Chicken Lass]

Hello again.
I have been feeding my chickens laying pellets and scratch feed mostly. They get let out in the yard sometimes to run around so they get grass and things. I haven't fed them oyster shell lately, but it wasn't too long ago that they got some. I haven't given them any grit.
One thing I did forget to mention was that all seven of my hens are having laying issues - every now and then an egg but hardly anything. This has been going on for a while.
The antibiotics I put in their water every day for at least five days, but it said on the packet to discontinue it if there was no improvement within three days. The brand name is Duramycin-10 and it has Tetracycline Hydrochloride in it. The wormer I used was Wazine 17. I have not repeated it because it hasn't been a month yet since I used it.
I don't think Sheila's droppings consist of egg yolk, it doesn't look quite like that - although another one of my hens layed a few shell-less egg yolks before she stopped laying altogether.
I did call quite a few vets and I gave up the idea of taking Sheila to one after I talked to a vet who does farm animals. He said that chickens are more complicated than dogs and cats and that it is really hard to diagnose them without a postmortem examination. So I thought I'd try here. If it starts looking like Sheila is suffering I will probably have her put down - but so far she still eating heartily and seems interested in the things of life. She'll even run a little for bread.
Thanks for replying so quickly threehorses and I'll try the yogurt and egg thing.

 

[threehorses]

Thanks for the fast reply.

OK first, diet. Scratch should be relinquished to that for which it's designed: a treat. The grains in scratch grains (if you're referring to the traditional unfortified milo/chops/wheat mix) are designed to be thrown in handfuls into the bedding to get the birds to 'scratch' around and fluff and aerate their bedding, keep them active, etc. It's very high in phosphorus which really messes up the very important calcium to phosphorus balance of a diet. (The "cal/phos" balance.)

The calcium phosphorus balance in the average non-layer diet is at least 2:1 (calciumhos).

For example, a good standard is Purina's SunFresh layer. It's label reads thusly:
Calcium, not less than 3.25%
Calcium, not more than 4.25%
Phosphorus, not less than 0.5%

For laying hens, the calhos balance is more than 2:1. In some cases individual needs can run the cal/phos balance all the way up to 15:1 . But since that level of calcium could be toxic if forced on the average hen, the feed designers give what is needed for the average laying hen and we, the owners, provide oyster shell (not shells of eggs) for a bioavailable calcium source. And we're to be careful of not feeding grains which are very high in phosphorus because most feeds already provide sufficient phosphorus - more than enough - to let the calcium be absorbed.

(Calcium needs phosphorus just as much as phosphorus can sometimes harm calcium absorbtion).

If you provide too much phos, the body will extract its own calcium to bind to the phos to make that balance correct. It will do so by any means necessary. For the chicken's body, living > egg creation. So they stop making shells for the eggs (but not necessarily the eggs themselves). You get shell-less eggs. Shell-free eggs and soft shells don't necessarily pass out of the body like a shelled egg would. So sometimes you get peritonitis as the bacteria infect the hen from the eggs not being laid.

So - first things first - 95% laying pellets. If you want to feed more than handfuls of grain, try wheat, whole oats (my favorite because the hulls are beneficial to the hens and their good bacteria - and they provide condition, not too much fat which can interfere with production), whole red wheat. 5%. Scratch as a treat - they all love it.

The "every now and then an egg" tells me this is an issue - even for older hens who CAN lay if given enough nutrients to do so.

On the Duramycin, yes - and you did well. It won't work for peritonitis, and certainly won't help laying as it binds with calcium (which is why you don't use milk products while medicating with duramycin - it binds with the calcium and makes the meds unavailable).

The Wazine - that's fine as it'll help the hens get more of their every day nutrients. When you repeat, consider a more broad spectrum wormer like ivermectin (paste, injectable orally, or pour-on), fenbendazole (safe-guard paste - at most feedstores), or levamisole. Ivermectin will kill the larvael and adult roundworms. Wazine - the perfect first wormer - just kills adults, leaving larvae in there to still grow and infect the bird. So use it first so you don't overload the bird with too many paralyzed and exiting worms - follow up with something that kills the larvae, too - then repeat the broad spectrum twice annually. (Fall and spring because of lack of extreme temps, and try to aim for when they're not laying so you don't have to toss eggs.)

And the hen that laid the shell-less eggs - she's telling you she needs more calcium OR less grains or more D3. I'm betting on less grains.

Just so you'll know - I experienced this first hand when I trusted the word of a Feed STore Guy and fed scratch as a good part of my hens' diets - one fourth of their diet. First thing that happened was soft shelled eggs despite the oyster shell. The oyster shell couldn't keep up with the phosphorus of the grains! So I adjusted my feed and haven't looked back since. The eggs since, if anything, have a few little calcium deposits rather than ever being soft.

I think this is your fix here. I hope so. There's still a possibility that a hen could have peritonitis (gut infection) from the eggs - but getting rid of the egg shell problem is laying a good foundation for truly fixing the other issues. Older hens, I've found, tend to need a little more of everything to continue laying.

Unless other symptoms occur (and if they do please let us know immediately) let's see if this will fix things. I'd rather see you never have to get a post on these babies - until they're like 12 and then they can die happily of very-old age, yes?

If you do have one die, then please consider a post. Cool the body in running water, pat dry (don't wash anything like droppings off - leave them as they're 'clues' in the exam), wrap in the last papertowel that has a tiny bit of moisture, wrap in a plastic bag - tightly - and refrigerate, don't freeze. Freezing distorts the shape and color of organs. Let's hope you don't have to use this info. Maybe giving it to you, getting you prepared, will ward off any bad luck, yes?

 

[Chicken Lass]

Thanks so much threehorses!
I had no idea that scratch could interfere with egg laying! I'll change their diet and make sure to give them the right stuff. Hopefully Sheila's problem can be resolved with this too. I'll let you know if they start laying again and Sheila gets better.
Thanks!!!

 

[threehorses]

It indeed can - any high grain ratios can if they're not adapted to make up for protein (grains are around 8-11%), calcium, etc.

There was a time when I thought scratch was THE feed for birds. That's what I was told - but when I learned more, I learned it wasn't. So just pass on the info if you hear of someone else using it as the main food.

Please let us know how miss Sheila does, will you?

 

[Chicken Lass]

Sheila got some yogurt today and absolutely loved it! The others ate it right up too. I will start adding whole oats with their laying pellets tomorrow. If Sheila does have peritonitis, what do I need to do to help her get well? Maybe her poop does sometimes have a little yolk in it - I looked at it again tonight and it reminds me somewhat of egg drop soup! Should I try more antibiotics?
Thanks

 

[threehorses]

WOOT on the loving yogurt. That makes life easy. On the whole oats, just a bit - like less than 5% of their diet. You really want the emphasis on her actual nutrition.

And by the way - on 'whole oats' i mean the feed, not the oatmeal. The feed (whole oats) is an unhulled oat. Just wanted to make sure that was clear. If you don't have them, don't worry about it. Just feed her the scratch as treats and bribes.

It keeps her interested.

If she had true peritonitis, an antibiotic would be in order. Actually it would be best if a vet made the call because she could tell from the dropping if it was egg yolk, or yellowing cause by liver issues. But if you absolutely cannot see a vet, I know that others were recommending penicillin (250mg fish tablets daily orally, or injectable available at most feedstores - buy the 18 gauge needle or at least 20 as it's thick) for possible complications of a broken egg. Of course, with that you'd want to continue the yogurt.

For now - and I usually don't recommend this, but I'd consider giving her one crushed Tums tablet in her food to boost her calcium to see if you can't get her back on track quickly.

Any chance you could photograph the droppings?

 

[Glenda L Heywood]

after reading all this
may I state this
first if feeding scratch of any klind the chickens need granite grit in seperate feeder so the body can grind the scratch to be used for body essential diet

also I am not fond of any scratch that states Milo as the most ingredient
BECAUSE milo takes the Vit A out of a chickens body

if it was corn then the chickens body would get fat from the corn
only 9% protein in corn

The whole oats are okay for hens as it will keep the hens body using the protein but not having excess fat
also needs the grit daily as well as oyster shell

I would get the 500 mg of calcium tablet for humans and put the tablet in the milk for the wet mash probiotic and this will then be mixed into the dry feed and milk mixture
do this twice a day for a week then three times a week then once a week

this is what a friend of mine which had a cockateil with this problem did and it started her laying again

the chickens are probably not getting adequate vit's

also I would give the chickens the recipe for wet mash probiotics

and add Vit E and Vit B complex to the wet mash

this gives the chickens body a pick up and nervous ssystem some help

how is the chicn now
any questions email me

 

[mypicklebird]

The description of penguin posture, chronic diarrhea, wasting and lack of egg laying- fits with internal bacterial infection- google salpingitis & peritonitis (colibacillosis) this is often a fecal bacteria like e.coli. Often a complication of contaminated incubator, brooder, or dirty water. Standard feed store obtained antibiotics are unlikely to be effective, and hope of cure is low unless started very early. Sorry to be so gloomy, but if this is what is wrong with her- months is the time she has left, or less if this has been going on for months. If your goal is to get an active/heathy laying hen back- I would recommend culling her now. The upright posture means she is internally uncomfortable, so keep in mind quality of her life right now. If you want to see a vet to obtain antibiotics that would more likely be effective against e coli, go sooner rather than later- you may be able to prolong her life- but again, you are highly unlikely to get a normal laying hen again.
Tuberculosis is possible, but not common in backyard flocks. Other chronic wasting diseases are also possible- viral and bacterial, parasitic ect. If you do cull her or have her euthanized- consider sending her to your state lab for testing- then you will know for sure what was wrong and if you should have any cause for concern for the rest of your flock.


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