impacted crop?

[llcardinale]

Hi All,
First time chicken keeper with eight 10 week olds: four German Bielefelder and four Salmon Faverolle. They are still in their 42 sq. ft. brooder with combination bedding of Aspen shavings, straw pellets, and dust extracted cut straw. I'm feeding Scratch & Peck mash, half starter mash and half grower mash (--they have been unwilling to eat crumbles or only grower mash). Also have regularly given broccoli, small pieces of garlic, and small cut wheat grass, along with black fly larvae. Three of the GBs have developed hyperextended firm crops, one with a golf ball size, and the other two with something like a ping pong size. None of the Faverolle have apparent full crops, but they are not nearly as aggressive eaters. The largest has had this going on for at least a couple of days. I thought it would resolve on its own, but not so fast. I separated the two larger crop chicks in their own 24 sq. ft. brooder next to their usual brooder, but one became especially agitated, throwing herself repeatedly against the brooder siding and flapping her wings wildly. I felt terrible and just couldn't stand it. These are the sweetest birds. I put them both back with their mates. I removed the food (--I had given them only wet food today) early in the evening, and turned lights off earlier. So, I plan to allow about 14 hours without food for everyone, and I'll start in the morning earlier then usual by offering the three enlarged crop chicks olive oil in a bowl, and shortly thereafter massaging their crops. If this doesn't work I'll take them to the vet within a couple of days. Their 7x6x7 tent coop is housed in 400 sq. ft. finished shed with exhaust fans at both ends and large windows at both ends, and a whole house hepa air purifier. Fresh water is provided four to five times daily, and the litter is cleaned from their bedding at the same time--all to say that they have a healthy environment. All chicks seem to eat a fair amount of bedding, primarily the Aspen. I'm thinking of getting rid of bedding, at least the Aspen, and maybe going back to only paper towels for awhile if removing the Aspen doesn't lessen their eating of bedding. I'm blown away by how much goes into trying to keep these feather babies healthy. The coop will be ready for them in about a week, but I'm wanting to resolve the impacted crop situation before transitioning them. Any feedback would be appreciated. I don't know anyone who has ever had chickens--so wish I did.

 

[nuthatched]

Are they getting any grit? They need grit when feed anything except chick feed.
Does it feel like they're eating the bedding?
Is it shrinking overnight?

Do not feed them any garlic, especially cut up raw, it's toxic to them and can cause chemical burns to their gi.
They are plenty old enough to not need a brooder at all.

 

[llcardinale]

Are they getting any grit? They need grit when feed anything except chick feed.
Does it feel like they're eating the bedding?
Is it shrinking overnight?

Do not feed them any garlic, especially cut up raw, it's toxic to them and can cause chemical burns to their gi.
They are plenty old enough to not need a brooder at all.

Thank you for your response. Yes, they get plenty of grit. Their brooder is large, so determining volume eaten of bedding isn't possible. Regarding garlic, it is widely used and believed to be beneficial for chickens. Do you have supportive research that you could refer me to?

 

[nuthatched]

I do have research, let me get it Just because something is widely used or even reccomended ad nauseum doesn't make it safe. Diotomaeceous Earth and acv are two thing people blindly reccomend.
I've found very little to no helpful benefits in these things and some pretty risky side effects to death.

Edit: most are regarding worming.

Cortés A, García-Ferrús M, Sotillo J, Guillermo Esteban J, Toledo R, Muñoz-Antolí C. Effects of dietary intake of garlic on intestinal trematodes. Parasitol Res. 2017 Aug;116(8):2119-2129. doi: 10.1007/s00436-017-5511-1. Epub 2017 May 23. PMID: 28536879.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28536879/

Mayeux PR, Agrawal KC, Tou JS, et al. The pharmacological effects of allicin, a constituent of garlic oil. Agents Actions 1988;25:182-190.

Velkers FC, Dieho K, Pecher FW, Vernooij JC, van Eck JH, Landman WJ. Efficacy of allicin from garlic against Ascaridia galli infection in chickens. Poult Sci. 2011 Feb;90(2):364-8. doi: 10.3382/ps.2010-01090. PMID: 21248333. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21248333/

Allium species poisoning in Dogs and Cats. R.B. Cope, BSc, BVSc, PhD, Department of Biomedical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Oregon State University, 2005

Saastamoinen M, Särkijärvi S, Hyyppä S. Garlic (Allium Sativum) Supplementation Improves Respiratory Health but Has Increased Risk of Lower Hematologic Values in Horses. Animals (Basel). 2019 Jan 2;9(1):13. doi: 10.3390/ani9010013. PMID: 30609743; PMCID: PMC6356413.

Josefina Palacios-Landín , Pedro Mendoza-de Gives , David Osvaldo Salinas-Sánchez , María Eugenia López-Arellano , Enrique Liébano-Hernández , Victor Manuel Hernández-Velázquez , María Guadalupe Valladares-Cisneros In vitro and in vivo Nematocidal Activity of Allium sativum and Tagetes erecta Extracts Against Haemonchus contortus Allium sativum (Sarımsak) ve Tagetes erecta (Kadife Çiçeği) Özlerinin Haemonchus contortus'a Karşı in-vitro ve in-vivo Nematisidal Etkisi
https://doi.org/10.5152/tpd.2015.4523

Kothari, Damini, Woo-Do Lee, Kai-Min Niu, and Soo-Ki Kim. 2019. "The Genus Allium as Poultry Feed Additive: A Review" Animals 9, no. 12: 1032. https://doi.org/10.3390/ani9121032

Laura L. Wade and Shelley J. Newman "Hemoglobinuric Nephrosis and Hepatosplenic Erythrophagocytosis in a Dusky-headed Conure (Aratinga weddelli) After Ingestion of Garlic (Allium sativum)," Journal of Avian Medicine and Surgery 18(3), 155-161, (1 September 2004). https://doi.org/10.1647/2002-030

J.M. Burke, A. Wells, P. Casey, J.E. Miller, Garlic and papaya lack control over gastrointestinal nematodes in goats and lambs, Veterinary Parasitology, Volume 159, Issue 2, 2009, Pages 171-174, ISSN 0304-4017, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.vetpar.2008.10.021. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304401708005475)

Francesco Buono, Laura Pacifico, Diego Piantedosi, Giovanni Sgroi, Benedetto Neola, Cristina Roncoroni, Angelo Genovese, Domenico Rufrano, Vincenzo Veneziano,
Preliminary Observations of the Effect of Garlic on Egg Shedding in Horses Naturally Infected by Intestinal Strongyles,
Journal of Equine Veterinary Science, Volume 72, 2019, Pages 79-83, ISSN 0737-0806, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jevs.2018.10.025. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0737080618305264)

 

[Wyorp Rock]

So, I plan to allow about 14 hours without food for everyone, and I'll start in the morning earlier then usual by offering the three enlarged crop chicks olive oil in a bowl, and shortly thereafter massaging their crops. If this doesn't work I'll take them to the vet within a couple of days.

Fresh water is provided four to five times daily, and the litter is cleaned from their bedding at the same time--all to say that they have a healthy environment. All chicks seem to eat a fair amount of bedding, primarily the Aspen. I'm thinking of getting rid of bedding, at least the Aspen, and maybe going back to only paper towels for awhile if removing the Aspen doesn't lessen their eating of bedding.

I'm feeding Scratch & Peck mash, half starter mash and half grower mash (--they have been unwilling to eat crumbles or only grower mash). Also have regularly given broccoli, small pieces of garlic, and small cut wheat grass, along with black fly larvae. Three of the GBs have developed hyperextended firm crops, one with a golf ball size, and the other two with something like a ping pong size.

Do you have photos of the chicks and their poop?

Are any of them acting sick? Lethargic?

When are you checking the crops? How are you brooding - with a heat plate or lamp?

Check crops first thing in the morning before they have had anything to eat/drink. If the crops are emptying overnight, there should not be cause for concern.

With chicks being small, their crops can look quite full/distended, large and firm. Chicks fill up especially at night if they are sleeping all night so crops will be full. If emptying by morning, that's great.

If not emptying by morning, then address the issue. I would not provide liquid oil for them. They will not drink it and if you syringe it into them, they could easily aspirate. If they must have oil, then give chilled coconut oil chunks, most of the time they will eat that or it can be mixed with a little bit of food.

Take care when massaging crops that you don't push the contents up and into the airway, chickens do not have a gag reflex.

Eating bedding can be a normal activity for chicks (chickens). They tastes bits and pieces. Since their coop/run is not ready yet, provide them with a large pan of dirt from the area that they will be living so they can play in that, take dust baths, etc.

 

[llcardinale]

Do you have photos of the chicks and their poop?

Are any of them acting sick? Lethargic?

When are you checking the crops? How are you brooding - with a heat plate or lamp?

Check crops first thing in the morning before they have had anything to eat/drink. If the crops are emptying overnight, there should not be cause for concern.

With chicks being small, their crops can look quite full/distended, large and firm. Chicks fill up especially at night if they are sleeping all night so crops will be full. If emptying by morning, that's great.

If not emptying by morning, then address the issue. I would not provide liquid oil for them. They will not drink it and if you syringe it into them, they could easily aspirate. If they must have oil, then give chilled coconut oil chunks, most of the time they will eat that or it can be mixed with a little bit of food.

Take care when massaging crops that you don't push the contents up and into the airway, chickens do not have a gag reflex.

Eating bedding can be a normal activity for chicks (chickens). They tastes bits and pieces. Since their coop/run is not ready yet, provide them with a large pan of dirt from the area that they will be living so they can play in that, take dust baths, etc.

Wow, thank you for your thoughtful and informative response. I think what was happening was that I was adding Aspen shavings, which they love, just before bed to the area they sleep. So, they were filling up on shavings, and then in the morning eating a lot. Their crops were then very full in the morning, both before, and then especially after breakfast. So, for the past two days I've not added shavings at night and that seems to have made the difference: They're not getting up with a full crop. I did end up adding a small amount of organic extra virgin olive oil in there wet feed. Because the three chicks of the eight tend to overeat on bedding, I've decided to feed wet feed daily, and then provide dry feed afterward. I'll try the coconut chunks, as well as adding a little olive oil in their wet feed a couple of times a week. I like the idea of providing a pan of the run dirt. I've given them small broccoli plants and wheat grass from the same soil over the past few weeks, but they're probably ready for a larger does of soil. Thank you for the massage instruction. I'd read somewhat conflicting information, but your advise makes the most sense. I did some very light massaging, but was hesitant because I was unsure. I'm no longer using any heat source because they're ten weeks old. They are cold weather breeds, so I think they're fine. I used two heat plates until they stopped laying on them, which was about two weeks ago. The brooder is large (6x7x7) and I placed a little house inside as well. If they're chilled or frightened they will cozy up inside it. They all seem full of energy and ready to be out of their brooder, which should happen by the end of next week. The coop situation has been a bit of a fiasco, but looks like it'll be ready--lots of ventilation, exhaust fan and air purifier. This has been quite the journey being sure to keep these little souls alive and well when possessing zero knowledge going into this. I ordered six, was sent ten. They're all alive and doing well. I surrendered two that had beak and hip deformities to my vet who is treating them and will add them to her small flock once they're well enough and have gained wait. All more than you'd ever want to know, but thank you so much for all of your feedback and advise. I so appreciate it.

 

[llcardinale]

I do have research, let me get it Just because something is widely used or even reccomended ad nauseum doesn't make it safe. Diotomaeceous Earth and acv are two thing people blindly reccomend.
I've found very little to no helpful benefits in these things and some pretty risky side effects to death.

Edit: most are regarding worming.

Cortés A, García-Ferrús M, Sotillo J, Guillermo Esteban J, Toledo R, Muñoz-Antolí C. Effects of dietary intake of garlic on intestinal trematodes. Parasitol Res. 2017 Aug;116(8):2119-2129. doi: 10.1007/s00436-017-5511-1. Epub 2017 May 23. PMID: 28536879.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28536879/

Mayeux PR, Agrawal KC, Tou JS, et al. The pharmacological effects of allicin, a constituent of garlic oil. Agents Actions 1988;25:182-190.

Velkers FC, Dieho K, Pecher FW, Vernooij JC, van Eck JH, Landman WJ. Efficacy of allicin from garlic against Ascaridia galli infection in chickens. Poult Sci. 2011 Feb;90(2):364-8. doi: 10.3382/ps.2010-01090. PMID: 21248333. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21248333/

Allium species poisoning in Dogs and Cats. R.B. Cope, BSc, BVSc, PhD, Department of Biomedical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Oregon State University, 2005

Saastamoinen M, Särkijärvi S, Hyyppä S. Garlic (Allium Sativum) Supplementation Improves Respiratory Health but Has Increased Risk of Lower Hematologic Values in Horses. Animals (Basel). 2019 Jan 2;9(1):13. doi: 10.3390/ani9010013. PMID: 30609743; PMCID: PMC6356413.

Josefina Palacios-Landín , Pedro Mendoza-de Gives , David Osvaldo Salinas-Sánchez , María Eugenia López-Arellano , Enrique Liébano-Hernández , Victor Manuel Hernández-Velázquez , María Guadalupe Valladares-Cisneros In vitro and in vivo Nematocidal Activity of Allium sativum and Tagetes erecta Extracts Against Haemonchus contortus Allium sativum (Sarımsak) ve Tagetes erecta (Kadife Çiçeği) Özlerinin Haemonchus contortus'a Karşı in-vitro ve in-vivo Nematisidal Etkisi
https://doi.org/10.5152/tpd.2015.4523

Kothari, Damini, Woo-Do Lee, Kai-Min Niu, and Soo-Ki Kim. 2019. "The Genus Allium as Poultry Feed Additive: A Review" Animals 9, no. 12: 1032. https://doi.org/10.3390/ani9121032

Laura L. Wade and Shelley J. Newman "Hemoglobinuric Nephrosis and Hepatosplenic Erythrophagocytosis in a Dusky-headed Conure (Aratinga weddelli) After Ingestion of Garlic (Allium sativum)," Journal of Avian Medicine and Surgery 18(3), 155-161, (1 September 2004). https://doi.org/10.1647/2002-030

J.M. Burke, A. Wells, P. Casey, J.E. Miller, Garlic and papaya lack control over gastrointestinal nematodes in goats and lambs, Veterinary Parasitology, Volume 159, Issue 2, 2009, Pages 171-174, ISSN 0304-4017, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.vetpar.2008.10.021. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304401708005475)

Francesco Buono, Laura Pacifico, Diego Piantedosi, Giovanni Sgroi, Benedetto Neola, Cristina Roncoroni, Angelo Genovese, Domenico Rufrano, Vincenzo Veneziano,
Preliminary Observations of the Effect of Garlic on Egg Shedding in Horses Naturally Infected by Intestinal Strongyles,
Journal of Equine Veterinary Science, Volume 72, 2019, Pages 79-83, ISSN 0737-0806, https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jevs.2018.10.025. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0737080618305264)

Thank you for forwarding these sources. I only found one article that addressed chickens in which garlic had negative effects, and that was when administered at high doses. Another concluded that it had no apparent effect once worm infestation had occurred. I think it applies with nearly all supplementation that moderation is key, and also that supplements are generally most effective when used as a preventative. Once a parasite infestation has taken place, often pharmaceutical treatments will be needed. Thank you again for your follow up.