Marek's in older chicks - I vaccinated

[BayCityBabe]

I have a flock of older (2 y.o.) birds that were vaccinated for Marek's at the hatchery. This spring, we hatched out two batches of chicks - now 11 and 7 weeks old. The 11 week olds have been integrated into the flock for some time. One died about 2 weeks ago & another looks bad: buggy eyes, ruffled feahters, skinny, and losing motor control. We took this one to the vet. It is being treated for a bacterial infection. The doctor will neither agree to or rule out Marek's. Doc wants us to wait for chicken to die & get a necropsy.

This is a pet! Culling is not attractive. Necropsy is 120 miles away! Not attractive. Also, this poor sick pullet is such a fighter. A real Tiny Tim.

So I contacted Doc at First State Supply. He represented that there is data that vaccination in exposed birds may be beneficial. So we vaccinated all our young birds. Has anyone done this? How did it work?
I did share with my kid that we might be killing these birds, rather than saving them. I feel very, very conflicted.

 

[threehorses]

As awful a suggestion as this seems, definitely please get a necropsy at least once your bird passes away (not saying you need to sacrifice her... I love my pets, too). I'm going to give you information on how to do that below - it was passed to me by a very dear friend and in friendship and concern I pass it to you. I can understand why you don't want to cull now, and unfortunately non-optical Mareks can often only be diagnosed via necropsy (to look for tumors) unless there are external tumors. Even paralysis is not a true diagnosis, although it can be very close to one. Optical Marek's is a different matter. More on that as well later.

In the mean time, if your vet treats for a bacterial infection, then make SURE that he has done a "Culture and Sensitivity" as you need to know exactly WHICH bacteria is causing the problem, and which practical antibiotics will treat it without resistance. He will take a swab of whatever he feels is infected, grow that bacteria, identify it specifically, then grow it again on a plate that has antibiotic discs. Where the bacteria doesn't grow, that's the meds he uses.

If he's a stickler, you be a stickler, too. You're your bird's only advocate.

You will also need to know exactly what the name of that bacteria is for the sake of the rest of your flock. There are diseases that can spread and if this is one, it would be nice to know so that you can accurately treat the rest of your flock.

And incidentally - Mareks is viral, not bacterial (antibiotics won't work against it) and it usually doesn't cause primary bacterial problems. There might be some secondary bacterial infections caused by the lowered immune system.

I've read Dr. Browns statements on Mareks given to birds showing initial symptoms of Mareks. I haven't done it, haven't heard anyone else that has, but if the bird doesn't have the true active form of Marek's yet (internal tumors or the eye issues) you could do it.

By the way , on vaccinations.... as you probably now know, Marek's vaccines will work to prevent the major Marek's issues (optical changes, tumors) if it is allowed to work without the bird being threatened too soon by the Marek's virus. Even a vaccinated bird, if the vaccine hasn't 'caught hold' yet will fall prey to Marek's. That makes the vaccine sound worthless, but it isn't. Most birds aren't exposed to huge threats of Marek's early and preventing the major Marek's issue is of great important and significance if those birds are threatened later on in life.

On vaccination, if you choose to please follow all advice by Dr. Brown concerning boosters, etc.

On necropsy: because you have other birds, I highly recommend this if your bird dies. Your vet can actually do the necropsy, report his findings, and have the people 120 miles away consult with him. Alternately, call your state ag college and explain what is going on, explain that you want to keep the bird alive until it decides to die, ask what you can do to help facilitate a necropsy at THAT time closer to home. Or how to ship to them.

If your bird dies, ,there's a way to preserve them for the best and most accurate and clear necropsy results. it's very important. Sad, but important. I apologize for an icky subject, but I give this to you as a friend would give a friend something important even if it wasn't particularly fun.

First, you would cool the body of the bird down under running water. Be careful not to wash off any droppings on the outside of the bird, exudates, etc. Just cool the body slowly. Cooling the body slightly will help to retard bacterial degradation of the body. It will also help preserve the body with the bacteria at death, not much more than at death. You want the person doing the necropsy to have as accurate and 'fresh' a look at the body and its cells and organs as possible. It honors the bird to take that care of them and get a real answer. It also honors the rest of your flock.

Once the bird is cooler, pat dry with clean paper towels. They need not be perfectly dry as a little moisture will help keep the body more moisturized as it was in life. Wrap the last paper towel around the bird. Place in an appropriate sized plastic bag (or two), and refrigerate.

Never freeze a bird that you want necropsied. It alters the cells, and the organs, and can taint the results of the necropsy. Try to get the bird to a vet for physical examination within 24 hours. Gather names now of vets who would be qualified to do that type of exam, even ones that work at emergency clinics or weekend hours if need be.

Most vets are able to tell if there are lesions on a bird's liver, etc. They need not be an avian vet though an avian vet is the most qualified.

If they feel a histopathology is needed (further tests) ask them to take DOUBLE samples (which they'll use to send off to make slides) in case something happens to the one set in transit. It costs no more to make 2 sets of samples, and it can mean a whole lot.

All of this, icky as it is, is all for the honor of your bird and the health of your flock. Getting a clear answer - even if after the bird dies itself - is the kindest thing you can do for the rest of your flock - and yourself. having questions of whether or not it will take the rest of your flock will make you sick with stress.

If you decide to sacrifice a bird for the sake of the rest of the flock, this is also a noble deed - although perfectly understandable if you don't feel you can do it. Just remember - doing so might actually save more birds than you lose should you choose to do so.

Definitely call your local ag colleges, ag extension, local NPIP testers to see if someone can get more resources for you. You might get more help and a little less distance help as well. Then some peace of mind, which I hope and pray for you to have.

Incidentally, please describe the eye conditions. specifically, do any of the surfaces of the eye appear grey or clouded? Do any of the pupils seem non-round, misshapen, or not responsive to light? You check pupil response by shining a light into their eye and then removing the light source. If the pupil contracts with light and enlarges when the light is removed, it's not "frozen" and that's good.

Please feel free to email me with any questions at all.

Incidentally, I had an optical Marek's rooster as a pet for years. He died last year of old age (something like 10 years old). He wasn't vaccinated, and the ones I had vaccinated never had any problems with Mareks (and were not exposed to him until they were well into 5-6 months of age).

One last thing I forgot to add: some respiratory bacterial diseases (and other disease I'm sure) can cause a bird to be ill and paralyzed. Since your vet seems to think something bacterial is going on, and many of the diseases can be transmitted or the birds carriers, it's very very important to figure out what that bacteria is. There are testers that will come to your place and test for reasonable fees. I'd try to get in touch with those folks (let us know if you need help) and try to figure out what this bacterial issue is. Does the vet feel it's causing the other symptoms?

 

[BayCityBabe]

The vet said that the sick bird has a *long rod* bacteria (or something). The bird does not have worms. The bird DOES have some very noticable conjunctivitis around the eye and it is losing control of its legs. A family member helped me & I vaccinated all the unvaccinated, yesterday afternoon. No one was dead this morning, so we will see.

This has all been very stressful, so I appreciate your detailed response. Thank you.

 

[threehorses]

Can you do me (and your birds) a favor and get him to specify which bacteria? This will be very extremely important as one of the "long rod" bacteria is pullorum, a strict government mandated cullable disease. The vet needs to determine exactly which long rod bacteria this is - preferably with a culture and sensitivity. It's possible he sent one off. With the number of chickens you have, I would have him do one. They swab the living bird, grow the bacteria, identify the specific bacteria - it's EXACT name (M. gallisepticum, etc), and then the regrow it on a plate with antibiotic discs to see *exactly* which antibiotic will treat it.

Since he said "long rod bacteria" i'd highly recommend that. If he won't, you could get a tester to come by and test - but they won't do a sensitivity test. They just rule out some bacteria, not identify exactly what you have.

Sometimes you just have to pester the vets. When I do that, I always thank them profusely - and consider sending them a plate of home-baked cookies with a thank you note.

Press for information. You're your bird's only advocate and it's very very important. Sometimes vets have so many things on their mind that they forget this.

Be sure to revaccinate all those that you vaccinated, and still keep them away from sick birds. Illness will easily override a new unboostered vaccination.