Mixed Signals With Brooder Temperature

[almcd23]

Hi everyone!

I just received my chicks yesterday (5 of the Meyer's brown egg-layer assorted!) and they all seem to be healthy and happy. I have them set up in a repurposed dog crate brooder, with the Producer's Pride lamp from TSC and a 250w red light bulb. They have plenty of room to get away from the lamp in the open-air part of the brooder, and they also have a mini hen-house (the box they came in) that isn't directly in the beam from the light but is on the lit end of the brooder.

I'm in TN so the outside temperature as I write this is 91, with 45% humidity. I was worried between that and the lamp, it might be too warm for them so I've been watching closely (nervous first timer here!). They have been sleeping huddled together in their chick-house, but occasionally one will run out panting and drink some water. But THEN it'll go BACK into the chick-house, which is presumably warmer than the unlit part of my brooder and jump right back in the puppy puddle.

I've attached some pictures of my setup for reference, so you can see how much space they have and where the "hot parts" of the brooder are (note that these photos were before they decided on an afternoon nap, but the box in question is this white box in the back corner). I was considering mounting the light outside, but because they're not doing a textbook too-hot scatter I'm worried they'd get chilled that way. I'm not sure what to make of these mixed signals!

 

[DellaMyDarling]

Do you have a thermometer you can put it?
Even a cheap $5 window suction cup type will give you some indication of temps in different places plus the ambient temp of room.

 

[almcd23]

Do you have a thermometer you can put it?
Even a cheap $5 window suction cup type will give you some indication of temps in different places plus the ambient temp of room.

I think I should get one! All of my research included suggestions to forgo one because the chicks will let you know what they need, but now I'm thinking my chicks aren't the best communicators

 

[DellaMyDarling]

Exactly!
I was using the mama Heating pad method.
One chick was likely shipping weak, but two others failed to thrive and starved to death under the heat pad. We had crazy weather swings that week.
In a second brooder with a heat lamp placed inside (different chicks, all teeny bantams), as long as I covered the top partially with a towel to keep heat in they were active and happy. Moved them to a brooder with a heat pad and suddenly everyone was sleepy under pad and refused to eat or drink. I moved them back to box with lamp.
Around this time I started using my cheap outdoor thermometer to see what was going on. The MHP wasn't getting much over 82* underneath. At this point the big chicks were nearly two weeks with some feathers and all acted happy. The one week bantams however, even when combining them with bigger chicks for more warmth won't act ok and stop coming out to eat.

I truly believe that if they are even a tad chill, they'd forgo food in order to stay in a warm spot even if it isn't warm enough. I surmise it can go the other way as well.

 

[Blooie]

Chicks huddle for security as much as for warmth - in some cases more so. They don’t like change and all they’ve had since they pecked their ways out of the shells is change. All they have for comfort in a big, scary world is each other.

They need a little cool in addition to the “required” heat, and you’ve provided that very well from the sounds of it. Required was in quotes because I have found those arbitrary numbers on a chart to be hard on the chicks and stressful for the owners. Is it too hot? Too cold? Should I raise the lamp? Lower it? I start my chicks, whether shipped or home hatched, outdoors when our springtime temperatures are still in the teens and twenties, with sideways blowing snow! They don’t have a lamp, just Mama Heating Pad, and they self-regulate by ducking under if they need a quick warmup. But they spend just as much time out in the ambient temperatures as they do underneath in the “cave”, perhaps more! Now, I’m not saying you have to do it that way, not at all. What I am saying, though, is to be careful not to mistake security huddling from seeking warmth huddling. It looks like your lamp is heating the entire brooder, I think. When I say temperature change, a couple of degrees difference on the cool side isn’t really much cooler. Can you point the lamp straighter down or put in a less potent bulb? When temps are in the 90s, a 250 W bulb is probably overkill, regardless of what the employees at the feed store tell you. They want to sell equipment. Sometimes I think more chicks are lost to excess heat and the resulting dehydration than cold.

If the chicks are running out and panting, getting a drink then running back into the little box, there’s a good chance that you are seeing security huddling. In your temperatures you could probably safely turn off the lamp for a few hours and see what they do. If you hear distressed cheeping, they might be a bit chilly. You’ll know it when you hear it. If they do well, just turn on the light at night when it cools off. Good luck.

 

[almcd23]

Thank you, everyone, for the thoughtful feedback! I followed Blooie's advice and unplugged the heat lamp — their puppy puddle broke up and I saw more activity nearly immediately! Weird that they wouldn't have gotten out of their huddle when they were too hot before, but they do seem much more comfortable now.
Not having the heat lamp on is scary because it goes against everything I've ever read! However, the "feels like" temp is still at 96 here, so until it starts to drop I'll leave it off unless I get some disgruntled peeps. I also moved the light to the outside of the brooder since I agree that the 250W is overkill. It's supposed to stay >70 even in the middle of the night, so I think having it a little further should be fine for the lil ladies. Appreciate the help!

 

[Blooie]

Exactly!
I was using the mama Heating pad method.
One chick was likely shipping weak, but two others failed to thrive and starved to death under the heat pad. We had crazy weather swings that week.
In a second brooder with a heat lamp placed inside (different chicks, all teeny bantams), as long as I covered the top partially with a towel to keep heat in they were active and happy. Moved them to a brooder with a heat pad and suddenly everyone was sleepy under pad and refused to eat or drink. I moved them back to box with lamp.
Around this time I started using my cheap outdoor thermometer to see what was going on. The MHP wasn't getting much over 82* underneath. At this point the big chicks were nearly two weeks with some feathers and all acted happy. The one week bantams however, even when combining them with bigger chicks for more warmth won't act ok and stop coming out to eat.

I truly believe that if they are even a tad chill, they'd forgo food in order to stay in a warm spot even if it isn't warm enough. I surmise it can go the other way as well.

That is so odd, and just the opposite of what those of us who use Mama Heating Pad have experienced. I was asked early in my thread what the temp on the floor of the heating pad cave was. Shoot - I didn’t know. All I did know was that for almost 2 weeks after opening the shipping box I had happy, thriving chicks. They’d never known anything else and they were growing, calm and confident. They ran in and out of the cave, self-regulating perfectly. But to answer her question and satisfy my curiosity, I put a wireless thermometer on the floor of the cave. It was 82.5 degrees in a 69 degree room! My chicks should have all been dead instead of being active and healthy. But they weren’t! As the years have gone by and hundreds of other folks have started using MHP, those who bother to check report average temps between 82 and 85 degrees. Their chicks are fine too, even raised outdoors from the start as I have done for 8 batches through the years.

There is a distinct behavior difference between heat lamp raised chicks and MHP chicks and that can be hard to get used to. MHP chicks go underneath and take long naps in the beginning. Just around sundown they tuck themselves in and sleep straight through the night, just as they do under a broody hen. They are much quieter, so when people don’t hear them cheeping a lot it can be disconcerting. MHP works by heating the chicks directly. The heating pad has to be at the level of their backs. The back of the cave should be lower than the front for chicks that need a little extra. I have raised Silkies and other bantams, right along with standards outside in temps in the teens and twenties, with sideways blowing snow. Never lost a single one. In fact, I lost chicks using a heat lamp (the one and only time I’ve ever used one) but not with MHP, even when I take chicks outdoors as soon as they are dry from the incubator.

I am so terribly sorry that your experience was a bad one. I wish I knew what happened in your situation. Losing chicks stinks, no matter how it happens.

 

[DellaMyDarling]

Blooie and I have conversed in thread a few times now regarding my MHP struggles.
I absolutely think the MHP is a superior device to a lamp, and it's frustrating that I've had mixed results. I will be posting up a longer detailed thread about it eventually.

In the end though, it all comes down to watching those chicks and adjusting accordingly. Textbook numbers never seem to equate the real world conditions. Each batch of chicks seems to vary slightly as well. It could be my imagination, but it also seems that adjustment per chicks behavior makes for hardier chicks. After the few I lost, and adjustments were made, all other chicks in that brooder are happy go lucky little birds who don't spend significant time under heat at all. I plan to slowly shift the bantam brood to the duck brooder (with MHP versus their lamp) because I think it can help strengthen them as well, like hardening off little plants.

I'm glad your chicks are doing well!