Mixing older hens with young hens....feed dilemma?!?!

[MichelleP]

We started our flock with nine 8wk old pullets. So of course, we bought a 50lb bag of medicated feed. Yesterday, we bought 4 2yo girls so we could at least see some kind of egg production while waiting for the young ones to mature. Not even THINKING about the prior feed being medicated, we mixed laying feed with the medicated feed. So it's about 45 lbs of medicated to about 25 lbs of egg layer feed. What do I do? The older hens are eating the medicated...but are they getting enough of what they need to be healthy? We know we will have to ditch the eggs until this batch of feed is gone, so that we are not ingesting the medication through the eggs. But will this be ok for the older girls? I should add that we threw a bale of Alfalfa into their pen plus they free range. What do I need to add to the older girl's diet, that will be ok for the younger girls to eat as well? SO confused!

 

[ChickenCanoe]

As you know, the older shouldn't have the amprolium but it won't kill them.
Bigger problem is the 4% calcium in the layer feed for the pullets but mixed as you've done it, they should be ok too.
You can provide oyster shell in a separate container for the hens.
After the feed is gone, get a non medicated grower feed and continue to provide the oyster shell. That should be in about 3 weeks or so.

 

[MichelleP]

What will the calcium do to the younger pullets if given to them?

 

[ChickensRDinos]

Laying birds expel a lot of calcium through egg shell production but young birds, roosters, and any other non-laying or infrequently laying birds have no way to expel all of this extra calcium so it builds up inside their bodies. It is especially bad for young birds. It can build up in their renal system and over time lead to kidney failure. It can also cause problems with the body's ability to absorb vitamin D which can lead to thin or shell-less eggs and serious issues with egg binding.

I would feed a non-medicated starter or grower feed and put a bowl of calcium (oyster shell) on the side. Chickens are very good at regulating their own nutritional needs if given good choices. They will only eat the calcium when needed if it is provided separate from the food. This way the laying hens can get the extra calcium they need and the babies and roosters will not get too much.

You can actually stick with this feeding plan as long as you want. I personally never feed a layer and just do grower + calcium for all of my birds. Up to you. If you end up with a flock of all laying hens in the future you can decide if you want to switch to a layer or not.

If you do a google search there are a number of scientific studies about calcium and young birds if you want to read more.

 

[MichelleP]

So the layer feed is feed mixed with this calcium...is that correct? And a regular feed is minus the calcium...yes? The breeder we got our hens from, said that she had already stopped the medicated starter on the hens (they were 7 weeks at the time). But because we had a few 3 day old chicks, we went ahead and put the 7 week pullets on the medicated starter since they were outside. So when she said she had them on, "regular feed", does that mean she had them on a non-medicated starter?

I also have a question about protein vs carb intake....We have their pin layered with Alfalfa, which they eat of course. We give them mainly vegetation scraps once a day (fruit peals, garden greens, etc...plus they free range in our grassy yard). I know there has to be a balance between the protein and the carb intake. I was told the Alfalfa is high in protein and so daily scraps of carbs are ideal. Is this accurate? I can't seem to find anything that indicates that when doing a search.

And a question about grit...we live in AZ...it's quite rocky and the girls have a ton of access to rocky dirt. Will I ever need to buy them grit since we are so rocky in our area?

 

[ChickensRDinos]

Laying feed has extra calcium and generally a little less protein. On average a laying feed will have around 16% protein and a grower or starter will have 18%-20%. It varies a little by brand. Some game bird feeds will have as high as 24%. The higher proteins are ideal with developing birds. From what I have read anything in the 15%-20% is going to be fine for adult birds depending on your breeds, goals and what other things they are eating. If you are buying a higher protein feed it does give you more room to supplement your birds feed with fodder or grains that may be lower protein without lowing the overall % too low.

I have never feed alfalfa so I don't know much about it. I did a google search of "% protein in alfalfa hay" (Is it hay? or it is sprouts? With hay just be careful that they are not eating really long pieces that could tangle in their crops)

I found this: http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences/pubs/agr137.pdf There were other links as well and I did not read over everything but it looks like table 1 on this PDF from the agriculture department at U of KY shows the different protein %s at the different growth stages of alfala. Looks like anywhere from 13-20% protein depending on what stage of growth you are feeding. Hopefully that helps some.

 

[MichelleP]

OY...it's all so scientific...who knew!

Yes, it is alfalfa hay. They seem to leave the stems alone and only eat the dried green leaves.

I am thinking it might be easier to just make our run bigger and separate the older girls from the younger girls. It's complex trying to figure out how to feed the two ages appropriately!!!

 

[ChickenCanoe]

You can learn a lot by reading the ingredient labels on the feed. Besides ingredients, there is a guaranteed analysis list of min/max percentages for things like salt, fat, fiber, calcium, phosphorous, protein and specifically lysine and methionine. Those are the things that are vital in the diet. Too little or too much can be a bad thing. As the saying goes, 'all things in moderation'.
Layer feed will always be in the neighborhood of 3.5-4.5% calcium. Starter/grower/finisher feeds won't be more than 1%.
The ingredient list will also tell you what the protein sources are. Most will be soy but some will have fish or pork meal.

 

[ChickensRDinos]

It seems complicated and you can get as into the little tiny details as you want but really grower food is made for chickens in general and is the best bet for a mixed flock. I am guessing it will have around 18% a % or 2 over will not make a huge difference. Do whatever works best for you but if you want to keep everyone together grower + oyster will get every one what they need. This is the most commonly used solution.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m not going to argue with what the others have been saying. I’m not even sure if I’m giving a different perspective or reinforcing what they are saying. Probably a bit of both. And I’m probably going to contribute to making it sound complicated. It doesn’t have to be complicated but we can sure make it that way.

Another thing. What I’m going to talk about is feeding chicks that will be part of a laying flock when they grow up. If you are raising them for meat or show, some of this won’t apply.

If they have access to rocky ground, don’t worry about grit. They’ll take care of that. That’s real easy.

You can look on the tag on the feed bag to see the analysis. That’s the section that gives the percent protein, fiber, salt, calcium, and other things. They are all basically the same except for two things, calcium and protein.

If you see a calcium around 4%, that is intended to be a Layer feed. It’s not suitable for growing chicks as a sole ration. There are plenty of studies that show what the extra calcium can do to growing chicks, like these.

Avian Gout
http://en.engormix.com/MA-poultry-i.../avian-gout-causes-treatment-t1246/165-p0.htm

British Study – Calcium and Protein
http://www.2ndchance.info/goutGuoHighProtein+Ca.pdf

But these studies are based on the chicks eating nothing but Layer. One bite of high calcium won’t kill them. It’s not about what percentage of one bite is calcium, it’s how many grams they eat in a day. And it’s not one day, it’s over several days. It’s a cumulative effect, not an instantaneous effect. If the Layer they eat is a pretty small percent of their overall diet, then they are highly unlikely to eat enough to hurt themselves. With all the things yours are getting, I don’t have a clue how much calcium they are actually getting. I can make it even more complicated. Since yours get to free range, they may be getting a fair amount of calcium from certain plants they eat, hard-shelled creepy crawlies they manage to catch, or if your native rock is limestone, they could be getting calcium from the rock they eat for grit. When you let them forage, you’ve blown the chance to micromanage their nutrient intake.

The good news is that if they are given a choice, they are pretty good about managing their calcium intake. The easy way to handle the potential calcium problem is to not mix oyster shell with their feed and not feed them Layer. Offer oyster shell on the side and they will self-regulate. Other than that, good luck figuring it out.

The other significant difference on the analysis label is the percent protein. Different companies offer different things. I’ve seen Layer in 16% and 18%. There are probably ones I haven’t seen outside that range. And some companies call the same thing different names, like All Flock is the same as Flock Raiser. I’ve seen feed from 15% protein Developer/Finisher to a 24% Game Bird Starter. The actual percent protein you feed them isn’t nearly as critical as some people like to think. The general idea is to start them off with a high percent protein for the first month or two (and it doesn’t matter that much if it is one or two months) to get them off to a good start and well feathered out, then switch to a lower protein feed as they mature. It’s not so much that the higher protein feed will hurt them as they develop, though I don’t go higher than 20% after two months, but that the higher protein feeds are more expensive and they don’t need it. Why spend the money if you don’t need to. Remember I’m talking about chicks that will be part of a laying flock. If you are raising them for show or for meat, this doesn’t necessarily apply.

And just like the calcium, it’s not what’s in one bite of food. It’s how much protein they are getting in a full day, and yes, that is also a cumulative effect. One day doesn’t matter that much. If yours are foraging for a significant portion of their food, you can’t micromanage this anyway.

From what you’ve said, I don’t think you have any problem with protein. At the age of yours, offer them anything with protein between 15% and 20% and you are good to go.

As far as the medicated feed. If you look on the label, it is almost certainly Amprolium. If your label says it’s something other than Amprolium then what I’m going to say will not apply, but I’m pretty sure it is Amprolium.

If you talk to Purina (I have via e-mail) they’ll say you can feed the Amprolium medicated feed to laying hens. The dosage in the medicated feed is pretty low. According to Purina, Amprolium is not absorbed through the intestine walls so it can’t get into the eggs to start with. According to the USDA, Amprolium in this dosage has not been proven to be harmful in the eggs. I once saw where an avian veterinarian said so little was absorbed through their guts that he did not think it was dangerous, but maybe a week’s withdrawal would be prudent just because of the unknowns. I’m not going to tell you that it is safe to eat those eggs, I’m not a medical professional. I don’t use medicated feed anyway. I can’t offer any suggestions on the medicated feed and the eggs question.

I know this is long and rambling. Hopefully you get something out of it. I know I don’t have any firm “If you don’t do this civilization as we know it will be forever altered” advice. Part of the problem is that there are no sure fired answers. Things can possibly cause problems, not that they absolutely will.

Personally I would not feed the Layer or if I did, it would be a pretty small percentage of the overall feed because of the calcium. On the protein, I really don’t think you have any worries.

Good luck with it.