Predator prevention, with protective roosters and other guardians?

[Northie]

I have read on here about roosters protecting the flock and I was wondering if it matters which breed you have. We were looking into buff orpingtons because we have two small children and I wanted a more docile and friendly breed (they will not be with the chickens alone). If I go with a gentle breed am I sacrificing the protective instinct that you would find in a more aggressive breed? If I want to free range my flock would something more aggressive be better?

I've also seen people mention ganders protecting the flock but my experience with "wild" Canadian geese would have me really hesitant to get any. We had a couple pairs come after us at the zoo during nesting season. I used the baby bag to keep them from going after our two year old and kept them away while my hubby scooted her and the baby to safety. I backed them off into the bush and we left. My boss has been attacked by a wild gander in a natural setting too... Are domestic geese this nasty?

Anyway... This whole guardian animal thing has me confused... Are guardian animals nice to their caregivers or do people just put up with nasty animals with hopes that these ones will protect the others?
While we're on it who uses guardian animals and what kind do you find works best?

 

[blondie34]

I think a lot depends on the breed, and if you are worried about them being friendly to you I would definitely get them as chicks (many hatcheries allow you to select a gender and cockerels are cheaper anyways so that's a plus)

I have seven different breeds of roosters that I have raised from chicks and all of them are polite and well mannered to me but only some let me hold them. The most docile of my roosters is a Silkie and my barred rock and brahma roosters are extremely friendly as well. My leghorn roosters and Ameraucana roosters are byfar the most fiesty and apt to throw a fit if something is threatening their girls. Leghorns a flighty and probably won't let you pick them up and handle them though.

By picking a more gentle breed of rooster you shouldn't be sacrificing protective instinct...my silkie rooster is a big ball of fluff but will still puff his chest and throw a fit if something is threatening his ladies.

What breeds are your girls?

 

[Clackclack]

It's a mixture or breed and luck. I have raised a cochin rooster by hand that was so gentle as a young one he would sit in our bed and watch 'Glee' with us. Once the hormones kicked in, he became unbearable to the point where he would chase me through the yard. So finally we passed him on to a rooster rescue place. I also think there is a trade off between protectiveness and being laid back, at least to a point.

 

[Northie]

We're still in the process of renovating the shed in my profile picture so we don't have any yet. That's kind of why I'm asking because I was having a hard time figuring out which breed will work best. I'm strongly leaning toward the BO's, but hubby wants RIR's and figures we'll just eat the mean roosters...

 

[Clackclack]

RIR are well known for their aggressive roosters....

 

[cgmccary]

I have read on here about roosters protecting the flock and I was wondering if it matters which breed you have. We were looking into buff orpingtons because we have two small children and I wanted a more docile and friendly breed (they will not be with the chickens alone). If I go with a gentle breed am I sacrificing the protective instinct that you would find in a more aggressive breed? If I want to free range my flock would something more aggressive be better?

I've also seen people mention ganders protecting the flock but my experience with "wild" Canadian geese would have me really hesitant to get any. We had a couple pairs come after us at the zoo during nesting season. I used the baby bag to keep them from going after our two year old and kept them away while my hubby scooted her and the baby to safety. I backed them off into the bush and we left. My boss has been attacked by a wild gander in a natural setting too... Are domestic geese this nasty?

Anyway... This whole guardian animal thing has me confused... Are guardian animals nice to their caregivers or do people just put up with nasty animals with hopes that these ones will protect the others?
While we're on it who uses guardian animals and what kind do you find works best?

Roosters are not the answer to any predator problem. Predators can kill roosters too. Sometimes, a rooster will throw itself between a predator and his hens, running to their rescue. But a rooster is no match for a hungry predator (he will just become the meal).

My Toulouse Gander will kill a chicken if he can get ahold of it. The chickens stay clear of my geese. Geese ARE NOT effective against coyotes, fox, raccoons, Great Horned Owls, domestic dogs, any large predator -- they will need protection too; however, they may be effective as a deterrent against some hawks (many have argued this & I have observed my geese leaping at a Sharp-shinned who caught a small bird off the feeder -- I think they would treat a hawk like they would my chickens so a hawk on the ground would be in trouble if the geese were near).

The best predator deterrent is a Livestock Guardian Dog (i.e. one of the breeds known as a LGD & there are many, eg. Anatolian Shepherd, Great Pyrenees). People who utilize them never butcher / process chickens in front of their dogs as the dogs may not thereafter trust their human owners, but they accept you catching the chickens, etc. and are obedient to their human masters -- but act independent of them.

I don''t have a LGD but I have a mutt dog who protects the home and animals on the farm against predators and also from humans whom she does not know. She is not a true LGD, in that, she is loyal to me only and is protecting her home & place. She knows and accepts the animals who live on our farm (chickens, geese, cows & donkey) but will chase and kill coons and opossums and keeps away coyotes, fox, strange dogs, strange cats and deer. She ignores the squirrels totally that live on the place (won't even chase them). She does not know or differentiate a hawk from any other bird (but I have the 6 large Toulouse geese who do). Lucked up finding the mutt dog as a stray (and her litter of puppies which I found homes). Smart dog. I only had to tell her "no" once about chasing a chicken or a cow (the first day she was introduced to each) & she understood immediately (again, she is obeying me). I have even observed her separating two cockerels who started fighting pulling them away from each other by the tail (she has observed me stopping fights). When the geese are being overly aggressive, she will scatter them when she sees me running them off from bothering the chickens (but will only do so once I begin). My mutt is a shepard / collie mix, best I can tell. Also, when they choose to stay home, my two hound mixes and a Mountain Feist are great at running off strange anything- animals (the hounds & feist are good at running and barking -- these four dogs are too overwhelming even for a pack of coyotes & any strange domestic dog-- they chase things away at night like a pack would & the hounds and Mountain Feist completely ignore the chickens (and steer clear of geese and donkey) -- again, all were rescues or strays & I just lucked up with my dogs.

My donkey (a Jenny) is also canine aggressive, and my dogs have learned to stay clear of her hooves. Also, the Jenny knows my dogs & accepts their presence to a degree (just not real close).

The only time I have lost a bird (here and there) is when they forage way into the forest off the premises, which is rare (maybe one a year -- except when I had Guineas -- they wandered far & wide and would sometimes get took). I free range my birds every day and my geese stay out 24/7.

My mutt dog always stays vigilante; she barks all night at things as a warning like a LGD (and one of the hounds is very loud and bold at night as well):



My Jenny:


Donkeys (best to have a Jenny) are NOT protecting the chickens or cows but instead, you are taking advantage of them protecting their territory (this is instinctive with them -- they are native to northern Africa where they are mostly solitary in the wild and must defend themselves and their territory with their hooves and biting). There are three sizes of donkeys: miniature (and worthless as a LG); standard (like mine above, OK but probably couldn't defend against a pack of domestic dogs ) and then a mammoth (which would be formidable against most predators in their territory). Not all donkeys are territorial and it is hit and miss with them. I once observed my donkey trying to stomp a hen and her small chicks when they got close. Fortunately, they scattered and none were hurt (just showing, she is territorial).

I admit my mutt dog is NOT necessarily protecting chickens, per se, but instead, she protects the home, the place and me. She knows the chickens & cow belong, and they can even eat out of the bowl with her (whereas, she wouldn't let one of the other dogs do that so she can distinguish that chickens cannot be hurt in any fashion where as a dog trying to steal her food, even if they are part of the pack, is not tolerated & she will jump on them -- likewise, she tolerates my little Maltease eating with her so she has good discriminating judgment).

 

[centrarchid]

I have read on here about roosters protecting the flock and I was wondering if it matters which breed you have. We were looking into buff orpingtons because we have two small children and I wanted a more docile and friendly breed (they will not be with the chickens alone). If I go with a gentle breed am I sacrificing the protective instinct that you would find in a more aggressive breed? If I want to free range my flock would something more aggressive be better?

I've also seen people mention ganders protecting the flock but my experience with "wild" Canadian geese would have me really hesitant to get any. We had a couple pairs come after us at the zoo during nesting season. I used the baby bag to keep them from going after our two year old and kept them away while my hubby scooted her and the baby to safety. I backed them off into the bush and we left. My boss has been attacked by a wild gander in a natural setting too... Are domestic geese this nasty?

Anyway... This whole guardian animal thing has me confused... Are guardian animals nice to their caregivers or do people just put up with nasty animals with hopes that these ones will protect the others?
While we're on it who uses guardian animals and what kind do you find works best?

If you are living in tight confines with your flock and guardian and expect vulnerable humans to be about (i.e. children / welcome visitors) the human aggressive guardians I would avoid. With respect to most predators guardians are expected to deal with, the tendency for aggression against humans is not an advantage unless predator is a human.


Consider integrated approach where more than one method and even more than one species is used to guard. I do value a free-range game rooster against my number one predator on chicks and small juveniles which is the Coopers Hawk. My game roosters will shut such hawks very well and they do it specifically to protect their offspring. When chicks still under hen's skirt, then will aid rooster. My dogs are very effective against anything that is coyote sized and down although they bark at people more than I desire at times. Electrified fencing stops other dogs and sneaky foxes that try to go after birds in perimeter pens within time interval required for my dogs to intervene. I provide some refuge to buy time for dogs to get to threat. Most importantly is my role. When a predator challenges my flock's safety, I make it a point to detect predator early in game and make adjustments. Before current dogs where in place this meant I personally went out in rain after midnight with heavy wooden dowel or rifle to run down or even dispatch threat. For me to be effective a window was left open to hear and with pens too far away to hear otherwise I employed baby monitors.

 

[Northie]

I was expecting to lose roosters in the act if they were called on to protect the flock. Kind of like a fainting goat in with the sheep. I don't think our dogs will ever be allowed near the chickens. They're a border collie and 2 mixed breeds with a decent percentage of husky in one and hunting hound in the other. The border collie probably wouldn't try to kill them but he has very strong herding instincts so he would worry them to death. The other two are barely safe with the cat so they're useless as guardians too.

I know donkeys can make aggressive guardians from personal experience. I was visiting a neighbour who had some donkeys and they said it was safe to go out and visit with them in the pasture. I went out and sure enough everyone was friendly, there were a few jennies a jack and some yearlings. I was playing with the yearlings when I got into trouble. Someone else showed up who believes their dog should be able to go anywhere they go and should never be leashed because it's "just cruel to deprive a dog of their freedom..." The big goofy dog came running out to see me. The jack tried to kill him striking and biting at him and the jennies tried to round up the yearlings and get them outta there. Unfortunately they lumped me in as one of the yearlings and wouldn't let me leave. They didn't hurt me but one of the jennies kept pushing me back with the babies using her body and head. I eventually had to get kinda cranky with her to remind her I wasn't a donkey and she wasn't allowed to push me around.

The dog owner isn't allowed to visit our place with their dog, at all!

 

[centrarchid]

The business of roosters sacrificing themselves for flock is not accurate. They will take risks for the purpose of protecting their perceived offspring but no simple hens if those hen have not been mated by rooster. Loss of rooster is a result of miscalculation because rooster will try to save his own offspring but not at outright cost of his own life.

 

[HeatherEmme]

I was expecting to lose roosters in the act if they were called on to protect the flock. Kind of like a fainting goat in with the sheep. I don't think our dogs will ever be allowed near the chickens. They're a border collie and 2 mixed breeds with a decent percentage of husky in one and hunting hound in the other. The border collie probably wouldn't try to kill them but he has very strong herding instincts so he would worry them to death. The other two are barely safe with the cat so they're useless as guardians too.

I know donkeys can make aggressive guardians from personal experience. I was visiting a neighbour who had some donkeys and they said it was safe to go out and visit with them in the pasture. I went out and sure enough everyone was friendly, there were a few jennies a jack and some yearlings. I was playing with the yearlings when I got into trouble. Someone else showed up who believes their dog should be able to go anywhere they go and should never be leashed because it's "just cruel to deprive a dog of their freedom..." The big goofy dog came running out to see me. The jack tried to kill him striking and biting at him and the jennies tried to round up the yearlings and get them outta there. Unfortunately they lumped me in as one of the yearlings and wouldn't let me leave. They didn't hurt me but one of the jennies kept pushing me back with the babies using her body and head. I eventually had to get kinda cranky with her to remind her I wasn't a donkey and she wasn't allowed to push me around.

The dog owner isn't allowed to visit our place with their dog, at all!

From what I've read on here not all roosters will sacrifice themselves for the flock and even if they did most predators won't just take one chicken, they'll usually kill as many as they can get to. So, even if the rooster did sacrifice himself it wouldn't do any good in most cases. What ever killed him would come back for the rest. Dogs tend to maul entire flocks if they can. Seems they like the chase and are bored once the 'play thing' is dead and go for the next. Foxes tend to kill, bury, and return for the next one...some like coyotes and/or raccoons hunt in multiples...etc. If you're planning to free range, you'll have to accept loss. That's what I learned from this thread. I wanted to free range, but I was not willing to accept that kind of loss so I built them a run instead.