Purebred Appenzeller Spitzhaubens or mixed?

[CashewVulture]

Hatched eggs from our own chickens. The eggs were from Appenzeller Spitzhauben hens. We have 2 roosters, one icelandic (Dominant) and one Silver Spangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben (Submissive). Are these chicks purebred Spitzhaubens or Icelandic/Spitzhauben mixes? They look almost identical to purebred Spitzhaubens but it’s unlikely that they’re pure since the most dominant rooster is the Icelandic. He mates with all the hens whenever he wants and the Spitzhauben only mates when the Icelandic isn’t looking (Which is relatively often but the other still mates those same ones but more) Can anyone tell if they are purebred or mixed? Is it possible to tell at this age? Or is it too early? (4 weeks) I am hoping at least a few are purebred, even though the chances of that are relatively slim.

I included pictures of all the chicks plus some of the two potential fathers.

 

[HorseGirlAbby]

It’s too early to tell for sure. Both dads look so similar it may be impossible to tell even when they’re older.

 

[JedJackson]

That is going to be very difficult to tell. Both roosters are silver based in color, and both have crests, although the Icelandic's is smaller.

I think their combs could tell the tale, but they are too small yet to be sure. Purebreds would have the V-shaped combs. V combs are partially dominant, so mixed with a bird with a single comb you'd get something in between the two, and possibly something like the comb type of Sicilian Buttercups.

 

[CashewVulture]

It’s too early to tell for sure. Both dads look so similar it may be impossible to tell even when they’re older.

That is going to be very difficult to tell. Both roosters are silver based in color, and both have crests, although the Icelandic's is smaller.

I think their combs could tell the tale, but they are too small yet to be sure. Purebreds would have the V-shaped combs. V combs are partially dominant, so mixed with a bird with a single comb you'd get something in between the two, and possibly something like the comb type of Sicilian Buttercups.

Thank you both for your responses! What made me think they could be pure is because we also have this chick, who is very likely a Icelandic/Spitzhauben mix. (Which I found out thanks to someone on BYC) and she looks very different from the others. Can chicks with the same parents look this different?

 

[JedJackson]

Thank you both for your responses! What made me think they could be pure is because we also have this chick, who is very likely a Icelandic/Spitzhauben mix. (Which I found out thanks to someone on BYC) and she looks very different from the others. Can chicks with the same parents look this different?

That one is definitely a mix. The comb type is a mix of single and V combs. Also her crest points backwards like an Icelandic's crest. So you make a good point. The ones in the previous photos do look different. But it's still a guessing game at this point. I'd keep an eye on the combs above all else. There can be a great deal of color variation in mixes.

 

[CashewVulture]

That one is definitely a mix. The comb type is a mix of single and V combs. Also her crest points backwards like an Icelandic's crest. So you make a good point. The ones in the previous photos do look different. But it's still a guessing game at this point. I'd keep an eye on the combs above all else. There can be a great deal of color variation in mixes.

Ok thanks! I’m just wondering if maybe there are other ways to find out? I know Spitzhaubens always have big nostrils (kind of shaped like a heart laying on its side) and Icelandics (and most chicken breeds) have normal side line nostrils. The Icelandic/Spitzhauben cross I just showed has normal line nostrils. The other chicks above that look Spitzhauben have the big nostrils. I don’t know if that means anything or not . Can feet color also mean anything?

I will continue looking at the combs as they grow and we’ll see! But for now, #1 and #3 have pretty big combs and I don’t see any single comb signs…they look pretty V to me. They’re not perfectly shaped but almost none of our adult spitzhaubens have perfect Vs.

 

[CashewVulture]

I also have two pictures of chick #1 and #3 from the front. I think they look like V combs.

 

[CashewVulture]

Can anyone tell me if they are 100% V combs? And if so, would that confirm that they are purebred? I have 2 Icelandic/Spitzhauben chicks the same age, and those ones have split single combs because of the V gene. So it’s easy to tell they are mixed. Also, I’ve already mentioned this but the two mixes have the Icelandic nostrils (normal line) and the others (the ones that look like spitzhaubens) have the wide cavernous nostrils that Appenzeller Spitzhaubens have. Does that mean anything?

The Icelandic/Spitzhauben mixes I know of have:
-Normal line nostrils (Icelandics have them)
-backwards facing crests
-blue/yellow and black feet
-Split single combs (because of the v gene)


The Spitzhauben lookalikes have:
-Cavernous nostrils
-upwards facing crests
-blue feet
-combs that very much resemble Vs. I don’t see any evidence of single combs mixed in there.


The pictures of some of the Spitzhauben lookalike combs are above in another reply

And the two combs of the mixes are down here

 

[CashewVulture]

Sorry for all the questions but I was wondering @NatJ could you help me with this?

 

[NatJ]

Ok thanks! I’m just wondering if maybe there are other ways to find out? I know Spitzhaubens always have big nostrils (kind of shaped like a heart laying on its side) and Icelandics (and most chicken breeds) have normal side line nostrils. The Icelandic/Spitzhauben cross I just showed has normal line nostrils. The other chicks above that look Spitzhauben have the big nostrils. I don’t know if that means anything or not

Big nostrils should mean two V comb genes, which would mean purebred Spitzhauben in this case.

Source:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2013692/
That has the abstract from a 1991 paper
"Some observations on high cavernous nostrils in the chicken"
by R G Somes Jr

I have 2 Icelandic/Spitzhauben chicks the same age, and those ones have split single combs because of the V gene. So it’s easy to tell they are mixed. Also, I’ve already mentioned this but the two mixes have the Icelandic nostrils (normal line) and the others (the ones that look like spitzhaubens) have the wide cavernous nostrils that Appenzeller Spitzhaubens have. Does that mean anything?

The Icelandic/Spitzhauben mixes I know of have:
-Normal line nostrils (Icelandics have them)
-backwards facing crests
-blue/yellow and black feet
-Split single combs (because of the v gene)


The Spitzhauben lookalikes have:
-Cavernous nostrils
-upwards facing crests
-blue feet
-combs that very much resemble Vs. I don’t see any evidence of single combs mixed in there.

Since the nostril types, the comb shapes, and the crest direction (forward vs back) are all correct for Spitzhaubens in some chicks, and all those points are wrong in some other chicks, I think you probably can identify the pure Spitzhauben chicks by that collection of traits.

I would still keep an eye on them as they grow up, in case something unexpected comes up, but I don't really expect you to find anything.

Can feet color also mean anything?

The Icelandic/Spitzhauben mixes I know of have:
...
-blue/yellow and black feet

The Spitzhauben lookalikes have:
...
-blue feet

Spitzhaubens are not supposed to have yellow in their foot color.
But if each Spitzhauben has two copies of the dominant gene for white skin (not yellow), then no chick would have yellow in the feet even if they did have a father of another breed.

So I think the yellow feet show that you have at least one Spitzhauben hen carrying a wrong gene for skin color, plus the Icelandic rooster having that gene as well. If you get any pure Spitzhauben chicks that show yellow in the feet, you will know the Spitzhauben rooster carries that gene as well.