Run/Coop maintenance after WORMING?

[tenderkat]

Well, if I can figure out the proper worming regimen from all the posts, I will soon be worming my two year olds for the first time. So, if I do it correctly, and they become worm-free, how do I keep them from re-infecting themselves in the run and coop? They have a 17x8 run, and a 4x8 henhouse , and they do not free-range except on occasion. So, the run and house have all the droppings prior to worming. Anyone do any particular run maintenance alongside worming? Such as tilling or anything else?

 

[Miss Lydia]

here is some info about worming and I'll try to find some info on what to do with run.



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Re: To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?
If you see roundworms, then there's a strong infestation. You will rarely ever see worms in the droppings otherwise. Not even if they have a medium infestation.

For Wazine 17 (piperazine 17%) you use one ounce wazine per one gallon of water. Or two measuring spoon Tablespoons of wazine per one gallon. Give as their sole source of water for 24 hours. Then remove from the coop. Retreat in 14 days with wazine, or consider treating them with a more broad spectrum wormer like fenbendazole, levamisole, or ivermectin.

My personal feeling on worms differs slightly from that of Damerow. I feel that it's best to worm twice annually and decrease the possibility of illness in the flock. My first worming I use wazine and then during the necessary re-dose (you must always repeat piperazine worming) use the stronger wormer. Then I use the stronger wormer twice annually for those birds thereafter.

New birds in the flock go through the wazine then stronger regimine unless they're chicks. I worm chicks at four months with ivermectin and put them in rotation with the adults for twice yearly.

Parasites literally scar the digestive tract as they burrow into it. Each scar in the digestive tract is one more place where nutrients can't absorb. I highly disagree that this is the way to go. I also disagree with constant worming (unless there are constant infestations, and then there's a problem with the caretaking.)

Additionally, worms decrease the immune system of birds, steal the nutrients, irritate the digestive tract, make the bird more susceptible to other digestive tract illnesses by stressing the good bacteria of the gut, increase incidences of coccidiosis (even in adults), and spread to healthy birds.

I totally believe in ecological balance, but in moderation. If you wait til you see worms, you're waiting too long.

The ideal way of doing things would be to test three or four random birds in a flock using a "fecal egg count" from a vet to see if you need to worm two or three times a year. That way it's less invasive and lets you know when to treat. For someone trained in that, it would be the best way. Or if you have a good vet who will let you just bring in a few fecal samples and charge you for that, not the visit.

p.s. (added shortly after) I was trained in doing fecals when i worked as a vet tech for a while. Honestly, I'm thinking that the equipment to do that again is going to be my "Christmas present" this year.

Alternatively, there are places online to which you can send fecal samples if you're interested. Foy's offers the service. (Call ahead to make sure they do fecals for poultry): http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/8000.html I believe there are other places online, too.
Last edited by threehorses (07/11/2009 9:02 pm)
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#3 07/11/2009 10:11 pm
GardenerGal
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Re: To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?
Thank you for that thorough information and your thoughts, ThreeHorses. It's enormously helpful. I've had chickens most of my life and this is the first time I've seen a worm come from them. It wasn't actually in a dropping; it was a full-sized 3" round worm deposited without feces. There was no mistaking it for anything else; it was definitely a large roundworm. Maybe it wandered down the cloaca? Kind of a rude wakeup call to start worming.

None of my 22+ bantams has ever shown any signs of infestation; they are normal weight, healthy and active, and of various ages. Their droppings appear normal and show no worms. They live in a closed barn and run. So, it was kind of a shock to find that one worm.
Vets and labs that work with poultry are rare where I live; if you own fowl, you usually must be your own vet. It's good to know that I might be able to arrange for fecal tests online, and I certainly will contact Foy's. I've bought meds from them in the past and know they are reliable.

One more question, if you don't mind:
Does the Wazine/Piperazine actually kill the worms, or just temporarily anaesthetize or paralyze them? I'm concerned that if the chickens pass live adult worms, it will be impossible to find and remove them all and there might be a danger of the flock re-ingesting them. Is that a plausible problem? I realize that Piperazine only works on free-moving adult worms (thus requiring another dose after the juveniles have matured), and not the developing juveniles which are burrowed into the intestine walls and won't fall when paralyzed.
Last edited by GardenerGal (07/11/2009 10:45 pm)
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#4 07/11/2009 10:43 pm
Chickenmaven
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Re: To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?
What is the withdrawl for Wazine? If I wormed my birds, would I have to throw away eggs for a week or two?
I am just geekie that way!
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#5 07/11/2009 10:51 pm
threehorses
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Re: To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?
GardenerGal wrote:

Thank you for that thorough information and your thoughts, ThreeHorses. It's enormously helpful.

I've had chickens most of my life and this is the first time I've seen a worm come from them. It wasn't actually in a dropping; it was a full-sized 3" roundworm that had been expelled from one of the bantams. Maybe it wandered down the cloaca.

None of my 22+ bantams has ever shown any signs of infestation; they are normal weight, healthy and active, and of various ages. Their droppings appear normal and show no worms. They live in a closed barn and run. So, it was kind of a shock to find that one worm. There was no mistaking it for anything else; it was definitely a large roundworm.

One more question, if you don't mind:
Does the Wazine/Piperazine actually kill the worms, or just temporarily anaesthetize or paralyze them? I'm concerned that if the chickens pass live adult worms, it will be impossible to find and remove them all and there might be a danger of the flock re-ingesting them. Is that a plausible problem? I realize that Piperazine only works on free-moving adult worms (thus requiring another dose after the juveniles have matured), and not the developing juveniles which are burrowed into the intestine walls and won't fall when paralyzed.
You sound experienced - you're certain it was a roundworm - not a tape? Because the treatment would be different? I just want to "dot my i's and cross my t's" here. It wasn't flat and segmented, but thin and round?

Piperazine's mechanism of action is indeed that it paralyzes the worm, causing it to be expelled. Roundworms do not live for very long outside their host. So you need not be concerned about having to retrieve them. But that's one reason why I follow up with something that DOES kill them.

They do also excyst and travel, as larvae, to the lungs of the animal at one point in their development. From there they are coughed back up and reenter the digestive tract where they become adults. There they are treatable by all roundworm-effective antihelmintics. You likely know this, but this is more for someone else who might read this and not know.

If you see a bird passing a worm, it's more likely that they have a large infestation since (as you well know) you will otherwise rarely see worms in poultry. So really, unless you do a fecal egg count to show how many eggs are being shed, one must assume there COULD be a large number of worms both in the intestines and the lungs.

If you kill all of the roundworms at once, then you have these dead worms that need to be expelled. If a bird's body is presented with a high number of dead worms, they can sometimes have an anaphylactic reaction to what has essentially become a "foreign protein" in their body. Alternately, there have been cases where a large number of dead worms being expelled from the body have caused blockage.

So that's why I always recommend Wazine first. If there are a large number of roundworms (and again we have to assume it's possible unless proven otherwise by an egg count), then you won't risk the "dead worm" foreign protein effect. Because Wazine is a repeated wormer, it's less effective and you won't overload the bird with passing worms if there's a huge infestation. If there are few, you might just get them all. But it's meant to be repeated.

Instead of repeating the wazine, I like the more broad spectrum wormers that also effect cecal worms, and even external parasites, and actually paralyze as well as KILL the parasites. I'm not sure whether or not it works on the lung parasites, and would suppose it depends on the wormer. Personally I use pour-on ivermectin which doesn't go through the digestive system but through the tissues. So it would be most likely to do so. I'm looking that up now actually because I don't know. It says "immature" but I'm not sure they mean in the lungs, though I really think they do.

But since ivermectin (and fenbendazole, and levamisole, and other broad-spectrum wormers) DO kill a number of other parasites (that may not shed through the feces) I like to knock down the numbers first with wazine. Also because ivermectin kills adult and immature roundworms, I take the safe gamble and do the weaker treatment first. Then go back and blast both adult and immature worms.

I hope that makes sense.
Last edited by threehorses (07/11/2009 10:54 pm)
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#6 07/11/2009 11:54 pm
sturdyprairiegal
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Re: To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?
This is incredibly helpful, for a number of reasons. Mostly because I stood reading my bottle of Wazine for about 20 minutes, converting ounces/100 birds to mL per 40 birds - no, wait, the younger chicks should get less - etc. Felt like I must have failed 2nd grade math!! So thanks for the tsp/TSP directions!!

Wonder whether anyone also raises guineas. Mine share the chickens water and I'm seeing an awful lot of very runny, dark brown droppings everywhere. (Particularly on my deck and the steps to the front door ... grr...) Seems to me it's both the chickens and the guineas, and I should treat both. I'll do more research on the guineas, of course, but just wondering if anyone has both, and have them sharing water, whether you've already encountered this and have advice.

I'm also especially appreciative of your very thorough answer here. Knowing that I should use a broader spectrum wormer to follow up is extremely helpful.

My cats and dogs both suddenly have worms, too... are people having a harder time with worms (and other parasites?) this year because it's been so wet, I'm wondering?

Now to worm myself and the kids

Thanks for all this help.
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#7 07/12/2009 12:06 am
threehorses
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Re: To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?
Chickenmaven wrote:

What is the withdrawl for Wazine? If I wormed my birds, would I have to throw away eggs for a week or two?
14 days. if you use wazine, you must repeat the treatment at some point as well.
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#8 07/12/2009 12:12 am
threehorses
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Re: To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?
sturdyprairiegal wrote:

This is incredibly helpful, for a number of reasons. Mostly because I stood reading my bottle of Wazine for about 20 minutes, converting ounces/100 birds to mL per 40 birds - no, wait, the younger chicks should get less - etc. Felt like I must have failed 2nd grade math!! So thanks for the tsp/TSP directions!!

Wonder whether anyone also raises guineas. Mine share the chickens water and I'm seeing an awful lot of very runny, dark brown droppings everywhere. (Particularly on my deck and the steps to the front door ... grr...) Seems to me it's both the chickens and the guineas, and I should treat both. I'll do more research on the guineas, of course, but just wondering if anyone has both, and have them sharing water, whether you've already encountered this and have advice.

I'm also especially appreciative of your very thorough answer here. Knowing that I should use a broader spectrum wormer to follow up is extremely helpful.

My cats and dogs both suddenly have worms, too... are people having a harder time with worms (and other parasites?) this year because it's been so wet, I'm wondering?

Now to worm myself and the kids

Thanks for all this help.
The way I wormed myself this year is by worming my birds. I forgot to wear gloves and of course my boyfriend and I both got ivermectin on us. LOL BUt I'm kidding about that worming us.

Yes, this will be a tough year for it. Parasites LOVE heat (which is why many companies study their antihelmintics in Florida and Texas.) It wouldn't surprise me to hear of more cases than usual.

As for the guineas, yes they can receive the wazine. It's the same dosage so make sure it's the sole source of water for them all for a day. The guineas and chickens can (and should) also have probiotics the day or two after the worming at least.

Dogs and cats can also be wormed with piperazine, but they get a different dosage and form of it. Make sure with them you're seeing roundworms. For dogs and cats, it's really best to get a fecal egg count. But you can also get tapeworm medication over the counter if you're seeing the segments (they look like dried pieces of rice in the animal's bedding).

And thank you for your kind words. I'm glad to be of help. There were many times I myself needed it and it wasn't there. I'd like to make sure that happens less to other people.
Last edited by threehorses (07/12/2009 12:13 am)
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#9 07/12/2009 9:06 am
GardenerGal
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Re: To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?
What you've written makes total sense, and so clearly written. The information on why -not- to kill a large infestation is extremely useful, and something I had not considered. Maybe it was a case of denial on my part that my precious flock could have a major infestation in the first place.

Yes, I'm 100% sure it was a roundworm. I was an "Ag" major way-back-when at the ol' state university --poultry science, gamebird management, animal science/husbandry, plant/soil science...the works!-- and know my nematodes.

I'm going to assume that there is a large infestation -forget the fecal egg count this time- and dose the water with Piperazine today. Also, I do have Ivermectin pour-on, though it states it's for cattle (I have used it for goats) and doesn't provide poultry dosage. I'd like to try it as the second round of treatment - rubbed into the bantams' neck skin, yes? - but don't want to overdose; how much would you recommend? These are small birds -- Belgian D'anvers, Nankins, Japanese/Chabos, OEG and the like.
I did read up on Levamisole and am considering that as an alternative.

Again, thank you for all of this information and for your willingness to share your insights. It should be archived on BYC. Or maybe you should consider writing your own book.

GG

threehorses wrote:

You sound experienced - you're certain it was a roundworm - not a tape? Because the treatment would be different? I just want to "dot my i's and cross my t's" here. It wasn't flat and segmented, but thin and round?

Piperazine's mechanism of action is indeed that it paralyzes the worm, causing it to be expelled. Roundworms do not live for very long outside their host. So you need not be concerned about having to retrieve them. But that's one reason why I follow up with something that DOES kill them.

They do also excyst and travel, as larvae, to the lungs of the animal at one point in their development. From there they are coughed back up and reenter the digestive tract where they become adults. There they are treatable by all roundworm-effective antihelmintics. You likely know this, but this is more for someone else who might read this and not know.

If you see a bird passing a worm, it's more likely that they have a large infestation since (as you well know) you will otherwise rarely see worms in poultry. So really, unless you do a fecal egg count to show how many eggs are being shed, one must assume there COULD be a large number of worms both in the intestines and the lungs.

If you kill all of the roundworms at once, then you have these dead worms that need to be expelled. If a bird's body is presented with a high number of dead worms, they can sometimes have an anaphylactic reaction to what has essentially become a "foreign protein" in their body. Alternately, there have been cases where a large number of dead worms being expelled from the body have caused blockage.

So that's why I always recommend Wazine first. If there are a large number of roundworms (and again we have to assume it's possible unless proven otherwise by an egg count), then you won't risk the "dead worm" foreign protein effect. Because Wazine is a repeated wormer, it's less effective and you won't overload the bird with passing worms if there's a huge infestation. If there are few, you might just get them all. But it's meant to be repeated.

Instead of repeating the wazine, I like the more broad spectrum wormers that also effect cecal worms, and even external parasites, and actually paralyze as well as KILL the parasites. I'm not sure whether or not it works on the lung parasites, and would suppose it depends on the wormer. Personally I use pour-on ivermectin which doesn't go through the digestive system but through the tissues. So it would be most likely to do so. I'm looking that up now actually because I don't know. It says "immature" but I'm not sure they mean in the lungs, though I really think they do.

But since ivermectin (and fenbendazole, and levamisole, and other broad-spectrum wormers) DO kill a number of other parasites (that may not shed through the feces) I like to knock down the numbers first with wazine. Also because ivermectin kills adult and immature roundworms, I take the safe gamble and do the weaker treatment first. Then go back and blast both adult and immature worms.

I hope that makes sense.
Last edited by GardenerGal (07/12/2009 9:14 am)
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#10 07/12/2009 9:22 am
ddawn
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Re: To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?
Great thread;

 

[dawg53]

Quote:
It's nearly impossible to keep your run worm free. As long as their feet touch the ground, they'll eventually get worms. You'd be better off having regularly scheduled wormings...perhaps annually or semi annually in your case because of where you live. I worm my chickens quarterly due to the warm moist soil conditions here, very condusive for worms. You can worm them whenever you want though, it's your choice.

 

[tenderkat]

WOW, Miss Lydia!! That is ALOT of info, thanks so much!! Dawg53 - That answers my question! So, the once or twice yearly worming will be my maintenance!


Sorry, but can anyone tell me some sources for these wormers? Would my local feedstore have them, or do I order online? Are they really expensive, relatively? I have 6 hens.

 

[dawg53]

Quote:
Your feedstore should have them. There is only one wormer that is produced specifically for chickens....wazine 17, but it only gets rid of roundworms and chickens can get many types of worms. What you'll need is an "off lable" wormer. In other words, a wormer for a different kind of farm animal such as goat, cattle or sheep wormer. Of course dosages will be much less for chickens. The best wormer right now is valbazen (albendazole). It is a liquid cattle/sheep wormer. It normally comes in a 500ml bottle and normally has a 2-3 year expiration date, it will last you a long time.It kills all known types of worms that chickens can get. If your feed store doesnt carry it, you can order it from Jefferslivestock.com It costs about $36 not including shipping.
Another good wormer is safeguard liquid goat wormer (fenbendazole) or safeguard paste horse wormer. Both should be available at your feed store, if not, Jefferslivestock.com carries it. The safeguard liquid goat wormer costs about $16 for a 125ml bottle, not including shipping. The safeguard paste horse wormer costs about $11. Safeguard will not kill tapeworms nor liver flukes. It's unlikely your chickens have them anyway. With valbazen, it has to be given orally; 1/2cc for a standard size chicken, 1/4cc for a smaller chicken. The safeguard liquid goat wormer dosage is 3cc per gallon of water, it must be your chickens sole source of water to drink for 48 hours, then remove and replace with regular freshwater. The safeguard paste dosage is a "pea" sized amount given orally, individually to each chicken. It's best to put the paste on a small piece of bread. Seperate your chickens, then give a piece of bread with the paste on it to each chicken one at a time. This way they cant steal the bread from one another, and you'll know they have all been wormed. For all 3 wormers, there is a 14 day withdrawal period to consume eggs. After the 10th day of your initial wormer, you should reworm with a different wormer to kill larva that the first worming missed or didnt kill. You want to use a different wormer because using the same wormer over and over can possibly cause worms to become resistant to that particular wormer and it may become ineffective.
There are a few other wormers available as well, such as ivermectin pour on, eprinex, zimectrin gold, equimax. Your choice as to which ones you want to use including the previous ones I mentioned above. If you choose any wormers in the previous sentence, PM me and I'll give you the dosage you require.