Truth or not...blue birds

[halo]

I nearly hijacked another thread, so I figured Id start over here. Its pretty evident that breeding blue birds to blue birds can lighten the blue over time. However, some say that it will also lighten the lacing. How can that be? I don't think the lacing gene is the same as the blue gene; isnt lacing its own set of genetics? If you have lacing, dont you have it? If you breed a blue laced bird to a blue laced bird, dont you have a good chance of getting even better lacing?

Also Im hearing people say that they breed "pure" blacks...not from blue x blacks....to blue or splash to get good blues. What difference does it make if the blacks you use are from black to black matings, or black to blue? I have black hens that are the product of black x blue matings, and they are absolutely gorgeous, with brilliant green color. And I have used them to produce some of the prettiest laced blues that I have. So is that truth, or wives tale?

I have scoured the internet reading what I can find on breeding blues, and Im just not finding evidence of a lot of these so-called truths.

So are these truths in breeding, or is it something Uncle Bob (is that better?) overheard at the local bar so it must be true?

 

[nikevijo]

Hmm no one answered you, that stinks. I was wondering the same thing about black.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Sorry, I hadn't seen this message before.

Chicken plumage colour is formed from two pigments, enmelanin (black) and pheomelanin (red).

Let's start with the "black" gene, E. Unlike the blue gene, Bl, there are several variations of E, not just two.

The E allele (variation) is extended black. It is the most dominant e-allele. Next in dominance is E^R, birchen. Next is sometimes E^Wh, wheaten. e+, wild-type/not-black is next, followed by e^b, brown, usually the most recessive e-allele. Wheaten, however, when combined with genes that enhance black pigment becomes the most recessive e-allele. As unlikely as it might seem, a completely black bird can be created with any of these alleles--as long as the correct helper genes are present. However, this base gene is very important for determining which patterns can and cannot be formed on a bird. A black created with a E-base is darker than one created with e+, and reacts differently with various pattern genes. Likewise with all the e-alleles--each has its own "flavour," to borrow a concept from Genetics of Chicken Colours.

Blue acts as a diluter to black pigment. You can think of it as being like bleach; however it has little or no affect on red pigment. One copy of blue dilutes all black pigment in the bird. Two copies further dilutes the blue to splash.

There is not a lacing gene. Lacing is formed by the combination of Pg Ml and Co--three genes, all needing two copies for good lacing. The combined effect of these genes is to push the black pigment to the edges of the feather. The less black pigment there is to start with, the less available to be pushed to the edge.

Blue is quite variable in the shade of colour, with the darkest blues being nearly indistinguishable from blacks, and the lightest being nearly lavender in tint.

If you breed black to black and never put blue into the mix, you can easily select for the darkest pigment and know that you are not accidentally throwing in a diluter--a very dark blue. If you breed blues and blacks together, you aren't really selecting for the blackest blacks and only keeping them in your breeding program. I don't know how you could scientifically prove that black to black breeding will always produce the darkest, best coloured birds. I don't think that you can disprove it, either.

 

[halo]

Very interesting; thanks for taking the time to explain that. So does that mean, in my simplest laymans terms, that breeding 2 laced blue birds together has less of a chance to produce lacing than breeding a blue bird to a black bird, since you have to have the black to produce the lacing?

Now in breeding blue to black, as I understand it, you can get either blue or black birds. So if the resulting birds are black, has there been a blue diluter in the black, or does the blue have to express itself if its a diluter by being blue instead of black? Can the black birds be "pure" (for lack of the correct term) black without the diluter being passed to them from the blue parent, or is the diluter always passed on to the offspring from a blue parent?

I think I just got a headache typing that. I hope that made some sense.

 

[pips&peeps]

The less black pigment there is to start with, the less available to be pushed to the edge.

From my personal experience, breeding blue to blue results in lighter shades of blue and less lacing. This is due to the above, so it would be true.​

 

[Mrs. Turbo]

I raise standard blue wyandottes....not sure what you are raising in blue? Anyway there isnt alot of info on the lacing or rather how to improve the lacing in blues out there....I try to use birds that have distinct lacing in my breeding program, since I really dont have a wyandotte that has the great black edged lacing that a good Andalusian Blue Chicken has. So at this point most of my birds have pretty good dark blue lacing on the blue feathers...I am working on it though...

I have found that you do need to use a good black wyandotte on your blues every now and then to darken the blue, I would and do use a black hen and not a black roo....the roo carrys two copies of the genes that you want for lacing (please someone step in here and correct me if I am wrong). I was able to find a good black hen from a breeder that came from a flock of black wyandottes.

I have read that breeding a splash roo to a black hen will give you good lacing, but I dont have any old enough to verify that.

If you are breeding blue wyandottes I would worry more about the black on their shanks than the lacing at this point. I think in blues you will have to have a cock and a hen line to have correctly colored legs, since if you use a hen and a roo with no black on the shanks the color goes to crap. I use hens with black on their shanks and roos with good orange legs and it seems to produce good colored birds....also use a longer legged roo now and then so the legs dont get to short or you will have "floaters" that seem to float on wood chips in the show cage.

Jerry..using my wifes username

 

[Mahonri]

get an education here everyday

 

[Henk69]

This topic at the-coop you should read (especially what I posted

)

http://www.the-coop.org/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002354#000002

 

[halo]

Thanks for that link; its very interesting.

Now in trying to get a line of blacks that doesnt come from blues, can it be "created" from a blue/black line? For example, I have a black roo and black hen. The black roo did come from a blue/black cross; the hen Im not sure. Both are brilliant green/blacks. Can I breed those two and assume that those babies will be non-blue blacks? Or do I have to go several more generations to get "rid" of the blue effect on the black?

 

[keystonepaul]

Hey folks thanks for taking the time to explain. It was very informative. Thanks, again, Keystonepaul