What haven't I thought of? Winter brooding in mobile coop

[LaurelC]

We are finally at the phase of our small farm where we are ready to add chickens. I have a small trailer that I picked up at an auction that I've been cleaning up and modifying to house a flock of layers. The long-term plan for the flock is transit the less steep areas of our farm alongside our flock of sheep.

Here's a slightly out-of-date shot of the coop. The top is covered in 1/4" hardware cloth and it has a sheet metal roof on top of that, the top 1' is entirely open (besides the hardware cloth), and the metal roofing stands off the ventilated top by 3.5", so between that and the open floor, I think we'll be fine as far as ventilation goes. The walls will be sheet metal, and we have an automatic door as well.

The plan for brooding is to park this in our unheated shop. The bottom and opening to the nest box will be covered in cardboard to prevent drafts, I have a heat lamp I can hang from the top, and I'm going to make a mama cave out of a heating pad I have, but we will be getting around 45 chicks, so I think having both sources of heat will be necessary. For water, I'll get a cheap chick waterer for them to use while they're small before transitioning to nipples and cups being fed from a 5 gallon bucket. My hope is to keep the bucket close enough to the heat lamp to prevent it from freezing, but I can pick up an aquarium heater if I need to. For food, I once again have a cheap little chick feeder and transition them to the PVC elbow type as soon as they're big enough to reach their little heads in there. For bedding, it's up in the air between pine pellets and shavings, but I think I'd prefer the pellets, all things being equal. I have a pretty large box I plan to put them in, inside the tractor for the first week or so just to make sure nobody gets lost or anything, then let them out into the whole area as they get bigger and more active. We are located in Kentucky, our chicks are arriving in late Feb, so the weather could be anything between 60F, or 10F.

It's been several years since I've had chickens (we had them in the suburbs before we moved to the country, but it's taken a minute to get our house built and be on site), and there's no way I'd be willing to brood them inside ever again. What am I missing? Is there more that I should consider?

 

[NatJ]

How big is the trailer/coop?

The plan for brooding is to park this in our unheated shop. The bottom and opening to the nest box will be covered in cardboard to prevent drafts, I have a heat lamp I can hang from the top, and I'm going to make a mama cave out of a heating pad I have, but we will be getting around 45 chicks, so I think having both sources of heat will be necessary.

For 45 chicks, I would skip the heating pad cave and just use the heat lamp.

At that season of year, with that many chicks, you might want to use two heat lamps (in case one bulb goes out on a cold night). Put them fairly close together, at one end of the space, so the chicks have a warm area and a cool area (cool area being at the other end.)

For water, I'll get a cheap chick waterer for them to use while they're small before transitioning to nipples and cups being fed from a 5 gallon bucket. My hope is to keep the bucket close enough to the heat lamp to prevent it from freezing, but I can pick up an aquarium heater if I need to.

The heat lamp will probably be enough to keep the water thawed, depending on where you put it. Check the water temperature every few hours when you first set that up: you don't want it getting too hot either.

I have a pretty large box I plan to put them in, inside the tractor for the first week or so just to make sure nobody gets lost or anything, then let them out into the whole area as they get bigger and more active.

I would probably take the box apart to make a cardboard ring that sits in the trailer, to contain them for the first few days. It will be easier to remove later.

For space: I commonly see advice to make a circle 5 feet across, with the heat lamp in the middle, for starting 50 chicks. I find that advice in the chick-care sections on several hatchery websites (I just double-checked it on McMurray, Ideal, and Cackle, and all three have it.) Since 45 chicks is almost as many as 50, that might be a good starting place for space.

We are located in Kentucky, our chicks are arriving in late Feb, so the weather could be anything between 60F, or 10F.

Adjust the heat lamp(s) during the last few days before the chicks arrive, to be sure you have it right for the conditions at the time.

If you set the heat lamps correctly for the coolest temperature, and have a large enough space, you do not have to change anything for the warmer days-- the chicks will just move themselves further from the heat. (That is one of the wonderful benefits of using a LARGE brooder.)

 

[LaurelC]

How big is the trailer/coop?

The dimensions are 6x8. I know we're likely to see a little crowding, but the only time they'll be inside is when they're eating feed, drinking water, sleeping, or laying, so besides at night (I'll make sure there's enough roost space for the number of birds we keep) they'll be out and about eating bugs. I've never mail-ordered chicks before, but I'm expecting some losses, a few of the birds are going to a friend, and I'll sell pullets til we get down to a flock size that seems to be able to coexist in the coop long term. I expect we'll have some losses by free-ranging, so adding a smaller group next year should be doable once we see losses through the summer to keep us in eggs through the winter. Our sheep overwinter in the garden area adjacent to our shop building, so running power to a dog crate brooder inside the tractor with the rest of the flock should be pretty straightforward

For 45 chicks, I would skip the heating pad cave and just use the heat lamp.

At that season of year, with that many chicks, you might want to use two heat lamps (in case one bulb goes out on a cold night). Put them fairly close together, at one end of the space, so the chicks have a warm area and a cool area (cool area being at the other end.)

The heat lamp will probably be enough to keep the water thawed, depending on where you put it. Check the water temperature every few hours when you first set that up: you don't want it getting too hot either.

Out of curiosity, avoiding the cave is just because it won't effectively keep many of them warm? It was kind of my backup snuggle place in case I had issues with the light. I got a nice premier one heavy-duty light as heating lamps make me kind of nervous, and I'm not super keen on dropping $$$ on another one, do you have a recommendation? I'll be using a chain and caribiner to hang them from the ceiling of trailer.

I would probably take the box apart to make a cardboard ring that sits in the trailer, to contain them for the first few days. It will be easier to remove later.

For space: I commonly see advice to make a circle 5 feet across, with the heat lamp in the middle, for starting 50 chicks. I find that advice in the chick-care sections on several hatchery websites (I just double-checked it on McMurray, Ideal, and Cackle, and all three have it.) Since 45 chicks is almost as many as 50, that might be a good starting place for space.


Adjust the heat lamp(s) during the last few days before the chicks arrive, to be sure you have it right for the conditions at the time.

If you set the heat lamps correctly for the coolest temperature, and have a large enough space, you do not have to change anything for the warmer days-- the chicks will just move themselves further from the heat. (That is one of the wonderful benefits of using a LARGE brooder.)

Good call on removing the bottom from the box. Future me appreciates you.

I'll definitely do a couple of dry runs during cold spells. I have an extra camera I can toss in there to keep an eye on them, and I'll get a wireless thermometer to make sure there's an area warm enough to keep them warm.


Good to know I'm on the right track on this. Thank you for your insight.

 

[NatJ]

Out of curiosity, avoiding the cave is just because it won't effectively keep many of them warm? It was kind of my backup snuggle place in case I had issues with the light.

Not many chicks can fit in the cave--yes, that is part of my reason (I don't like to fuss with extra things that don't do much good anyway.)

Other points against a heating pad cave:

--Chicks will mostly not use it, if there is a heat lamp available. They are attracted to light (not dark places, unless they get scared and try to hide.) The cave will not cluck like a broody hen to call them, either. So they will mostly ignore it.

--Chicks will not need it, if the light is working properly.

--Too many chicks huddling in a small place can smother (kill) the ones at the back/bottom of the pile. So if they DO all try to use the cave, you are likely to end up with dead chicks from that.

--Chicks that are not healthy (weak/ill) might hang out in the cave, where you cannot see them, and quietly starve to death. A heat lamp (light & heat) keeps them out where you can see them, and lets them eat & drink in the warm area (until they get bigger and you move the feed and water further away.) If they use the cave, it encourages them to just stay there in the warmth, and not come out for meals.

To be fair, I have never actually used a heating pad cave. I ruled them out based on the points above, and based on the fact that I already had experience raising chicks with a heat lamp before I ever heard about heating pad caves. I know they do work well for some people, but those accounts seem to be only with small numbers of chicks, and the chicks do have to be taught that inside is warm (taught by putting them in, or following the example of other chicks). Heat lamps do not require any training of the chicks, because they are naturally attracted to the light.

I got a nice premier one heavy-duty light as heating lamps make me kind of nervous, and I'm not super keen on dropping $$$ on another one, do you have a recommendation? I'll be using a chain and caribiner to hang them from the ceiling of trailer.

Hanging with a chain and carabiner is probably fine.

Maybe you and I are mis-communicating about what a "heat lamp" is. I mean any kind of fixture that accepts a big incandescent light bulb, that puts out light and also lots of heat. The bulb is the most important point in considering it a "heat lamp"-- something like 250 watts incandescent, that puts out large amounts of heat.

You can put the heat lamp bulb in any kind of fixture that is rated for that many watts and is relatively safe. The cheap-ish reflectors that you can buy at a farm store or hardware store are safe enough, IF they do not fall or get knocked down. Most of them are basically a ceramic socket (safe) with a metal reflector (not a problem) and a wire cage around the front (protects the bulb & chicks from each other, when the chicks start flying around.) The problem is when it gets knocked down (common culprit: friction-fit clamp that comes with it.)

You could consider getting one of the cheaper-type fixtures for a second heat lamp bulb, and use it only for the first week or two. After that, chicks are more able to withstand cold temperatures for a few hours if the light does go out. And you will still have the second bulb on hand, to be a replacement if the other one burns out. But you won't have as many days & weeks of worrying about whether the cheaper fixture will start a fire (I am assuming you do it safely, so it does not actually start a fire.)

The dimensions are 6x8.

That's 48 square feet.
I would say it's enough for approximately:
48 chicks to age 3-4 weeks
24 chicks to age 8 weeks
12 adult chickens (any age over 8 weeks, as regards space)

All of those numbers can be pushed a little bit in some cases, but they are a good general starting point (based on advice for 4 square foot each at adulthood, 2 square feet each up to 8 weeks, 1 square foot each to about 4 weeks).

I know we're likely to see a little crowding, but the only time they'll be inside is when they're eating feed, drinking water, sleeping, or laying, so besides at night (I'll make sure there's enough roost space for the number of birds we keep) they'll be out and about eating bugs. I've never mail-ordered chicks before, but I'm expecting some losses, a few of the birds are going to a friend, and I'll sell pullets til we get down to a flock size that seems to be able to coexist in the coop long term.

Yes, reducing numbers as they grow is a good strategy.
Yes, free ranging can make a big difference in how much space they need in the coop, if the range is available for all daytime hours on all days of the year.

If bad weather keeps them inside for days on end, you can have trouble.
If predators become a big issue, and you decide they can only be out when you are there to directly supervise, space will also be a much bigger issue. An hour of "free range" in the afternoon is not enough to make up for a too-crowded coop the rest of the day.

Good to know I'm on the right track on this.

Yes, overall it sounds like you have a good plan. It is also good that you know to watch how it goes, and adjust for the future based on what you see (crowding, predator loss, whether you are actually getting the right number of eggs for your needs, etc.)

 

[LaurelC]

That's 48 square feet.
I would say it's enough for approximately:
48 chicks to age 3-4 weeks
24 chicks to age 8 weeks
12 adult chickens (any age over 8 weeks, as regards space)

All of those numbers can be pushed a little bit in some cases, but they are a good general starting point (based on advice for 4 square foot each at adulthood, 2 square feet each up to 8 weeks, 1 square foot each to about 4 weeks).


Yes, reducing numbers as they grow is a good strategy.
Yes, free ranging can make a big difference in how much space they need in the coop, if the range is available for all daytime hours on all days of the year.

If bad weather keeps them inside for days on end, you can have trouble.
If predators become a big issue, and you decide they can only be out when you are there to directly supervise, space will also be a much bigger issue. An hour of "free range" in the afternoon is not enough to make up for a too-crowded coop the rest of the day.

I appreciate the input. I hope/expect that we can push our numbers quite a bit more than 12 birds, but of course will adjust if there are issues. They'll have an automatic door and will have access to free range during daylight hours. If we start getting land-based predation of any kind, it's easy enough to move them inside the ~1000 sq ft of electric netting we use to keep our sheep protected that gets moved weekly, but we've had the sheep for over a year without any evidence of predator activity anywhere near them during the day. There will not be a situation in which they only get "an hour of free range" ever. I won't be keeping them locked up in the tractor regardless of the weather. If the door's open and they want to go outside, they're free to. We don't have many days of snow out here, so even during the winter, there should be no reason for them not to be out and about doing chicken stuff. I'd even be pushing feeders/waterers out of the coop if I wasn't concerned that my sheep would trash them trying to rub on and/or get at what's inside.

The goal is a production system and the birds need to be happy and healthy in order to produce eggs. If we can prove that this is successful and profitable, we may end up moving to a larger system, more akin to Salatin's "millenium feathernet" which seems to fly in the face of general BYC recommendations, but has also been a commercially proven design. The hens won't be pets, but livestock for us, and while I want them to be well taken care of, first and foremost, they need to pay their own way, otherwise they won't have a place on our farm.

 

[aart]

Heating pads/plates work great, if built well, but there is a limit on numbers.

 

[LaurelC]

Heating pads/plates work great, if built well, but there is a limit on numbers.

If not all the birds can fit under the pad, is there a downside to using one? I have a large boot box that is about perfect dimensions to fit my heating pad and turn into a cave with a few entrances cut into it, but if we're likely to see some of the birds getting crushed, I'd rather err on the side of caution and use only lights. Previously, I only had 8 chicks using a heating pad brooder, so this is new territory for me.

 

[NatJ]

I appreciate the input. I hope/expect that we can push our numbers quite a bit more than 12 birds, but of course will adjust if there are issues. They'll have an automatic door and will have access to free range during daylight hours. If we start getting land-based predation of any kind, it's easy enough to move them inside the ~1000 sq ft of electric netting we use to keep our sheep protected that gets moved weekly, but we've had the sheep for over a year without any evidence of predator activity anywhere near them during the day. There will not be a situation in which they only get "an hour of free range" ever. I won't be keeping them locked up in the tractor regardless of the weather. If the door's open and they want to go outside, they're free to. We don't have many days of snow out here, so even during the winter, there should be no reason for them not to be out and about doing chicken stuff. I'd even be pushing feeders/waterers out of the coop if I wasn't concerned that my sheep would trash them trying to rub on and/or get at what's inside.

The goal is a production system and the birds need to be happy and healthy in order to produce eggs. If we can prove that this is successful and profitable, we may end up moving to a larger system, more akin to Salatin's "millenium feathernet" which seems to fly in the face of general BYC recommendations, but has also been a commercially proven design. The hens won't be pets, but livestock for us, and while I want them to be well taken care of, first and foremost, they need to pay their own way, otherwise they won't have a place on our farm.

That sounds like a workable set of plans (current ideas, options if things change, willingness to adapt based on what you actually see happening).

Yes, there is definitely a balance if you want to keep chickens "cheaply": extra space in the housing costs more money, but it also wastes money to have chickens kill each other or quit laying eggs because they are overcrowded. It will probably take you a bit of experimenting to find the maximum number that works for your setup (because no number is right for all cases), but starting with "too many" and paring them down is definitely a reasonable way to go about it. If you see trouble, see if you can spot particular troublemakers: sometimes removing one individual is just as good as removing a larger number of others, and other times there is no single troublemaker and you really do need to remove a large number to get much improvement.

 

[LaurelC]

If you see trouble, see if you can spot particular troublemakers: sometimes removing one individual is just as good as removing a larger number of others, and other times there is no single troublemaker and you really do need to remove a large number to get much improvement.

Yes! We had a vicious easter egger mutt that tormented the other 4 hens she was in with. Eliminated her and another (loud squawker) and upped our numbers and everyone got much calmer. Selling off spare birds will also help in the "profitable" department, so isn't really the end of the world if that ends up being the case.

 

[aart]

If not all the birds can fit under the pad, is there a downside to using one? I have a large boot box that is about perfect dimensions to fit my heating pad and turn into a cave with a few entrances cut into it, but if we're likely to see some of the birds getting crushed, I'd rather err on the side of caution and use only lights. Previously, I only had 8 chicks using a heating pad brooder, so this is new territory for me.

There are several downsides. Number of chicks is one.
Here's some things I have done to make the pad/plate efficient and safe:
I use a reptile heat light over the feed/water station the first couple days(only during the day) to check their mobility.
I don't care for the caves, they all need easy access in and out, so mine has 4 open sides.
Height needs to be adjustable, I use threaded rods for legs.
Assembly is easily lifted to check underneath, my brooder also has mesh sides so I can kinda see under there.
The most I've had under my 12x14" is 16, they were darn near too big to all fit by the time they no longer needed the heat.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/pseudo-brooder-heater-plate.67729/