When Will I Know For Sure the Gender

[Danniro]

Clearly not a docile hen. She has a weird look in the eye, once you've kept enough chickens to have a lot more experience you'll find you can tell which aren't right in the head by the looks in their eyes. Just as you can learn to spot mental imbalance in other species by the strange looks in their eyes. Eventually (well, immediately really) they will all show you the reasons behind their strange looks.

Since I cull against harmful behavioral traits as well as bad genetics etc I remove all nasty chooks of both genders because they're too much of a risk for my own safety as well as the other birds' safety. That's how I manage it but what you do is entirely dependent on your circumstances. What starts mild when they're young almost always (but not 100% of the time) gets worse with age. A heck of a lot of it is heritable too. Good breeds were established precisely by removing such dubious individuals from the genepool.

Best wishes.

Aw man, you think so? I guess we'll see how she is when she's older. My two hens are somewhat of bullies so they'll hopefully keep her in line. I was expecting them to both be quite docile with their breeding...

 

[chooks4life]

Aw man, you think so? I guess we'll see how she is when she's older. My two hens are somewhat of bullies so they'll hopefully keep her in line. I was expecting them to both be quite docile with their breeding...

There's all sorts of mental defects from the mild and even funny, to the severe and life threatening. There's no telling offhand where she falls in the spectrum but the pecking is a good sign it's not too safe an area in terms of how it's expressed.

Keeping her and seeing how she goes will be very educational and depending how it goes you will know in future whether others acting the same are worth the while, or not.

Mentally normal chooks are 'kept in line' by imbalanced, vicious individuals, because they don't want to risk their lives, but mentally abnormal chooks won't be, they're generally incredibly short on commonsense, lol. Hard to guesstimate how she'll cope with bullies, she looks like the type to be high anxiety. That can further compel harmful behavioral traits.

As for the breed traits you were hoping for, well, her physical type is not up to breed standards, so it's reasonable to assume her other traits aren't either. All breed reviews are only applicable to a percentage of the breed, not the whole, not even the majority, because every breeder shapes the generations hatched under their stewardship according to their beliefs. Many believe extreme violence is acceptable among flocks and towards their human keepers, so they select breeders accordingly and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy so to speak.

If she exhibits socially malignant traits like aggression, and they're inherited, then someone deviated from the standard ideal for the breed in order to produce her; if you breed her in turn, you're furthering this deviation from the temperament idealized as belonging to the breed. But many newbies don't know how important and influential the last few generations of progenitors are, and they expectantly buy a breed like it's a labeled food, expecting it to contain all the ingredients listed. Doesn't work that way; you have to 'vet' your breeders as carefully as you vet your birds, if not more so.

Hatchery bred sorts are generally crap examples of any breed. Even backyard breeders with some decent birds will still sell you crap examples of any given breed, quite often, simply because if they're selling it to you, they see faults they don't want to keep or breed.

If the bird was up to standard they wouldn't be selling it. If you want really decent birds, you need to generally be lucky enough to pick a breeder who is honest and ethical as well as generous, then answer the trick questions correctly ('what do you want them for?' --- if you answer that with 'just eggs, maybe some chicks sometime' then count on getting poor quality rejects)... And there's a host of other hoops to jump through too. Many breeders think what newbies don't know won't hurt them, the birds aren't destined for greatness anyway in the hands of a newbie. Not all breeders are like this of course, just plenty of them.

Best wishes with them all.

 

[One Chick Two]

There's all sorts of mental defects from the mild and even funny, to the severe and life threatening. There's no telling offhand where she falls in the spectrum but the pecking is a good sign it's not too safe an area in terms of how it's expressed.

Keeping her and seeing how she goes will be very educational and depending how it goes you will know in future whether others acting the same are worth the while, or not.

Mentally normal chooks are 'kept in line' by imbalanced, vicious individuals, because they don't want to risk their lives, but mentally abnormal chooks won't be, they're generally incredibly short on commonsense, lol. Hard to guesstimate how she'll cope with bullies, she looks like the type to be high anxiety. That can further compel harmful behavioral traits.

As for the breed traits you were hoping for, well, her physical type is not up to breed standards, so it's reasonable to assume her other traits aren't either. All breed reviews are only applicable to a percentage of the breed, not the whole, not even the majority, because every breeder shapes the generations hatched under their stewardship according to their beliefs. Many believe extreme violence is acceptable among flocks and towards their human keepers, so they select breeders accordingly and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy so to speak.

If she exhibits socially malignant traits like aggression, and they're inherited, then someone deviated from the standard ideal for the breed in order to produce her; if you breed her in turn, you're furthering this deviation from the temperament idealized as belonging to the breed. But many newbies don't know how important and influential the last few generations of progenitors are, and they expectantly buy a breed like it's a labeled food, expecting it to contain all the ingredients listed. Doesn't work that way; you have to 'vet' your breeders as carefully as you vet your birds, if not more so.

Hatchery bred sorts are generally crap examples of any breed. Even backyard breeders with some decent birds will still sell you crap examples of any given breed, quite often, simply because if they're selling it to you, they see faults they don't want to keep or breed.

If the bird was up to standard they wouldn't be selling it. If you want really decent birds, you need to generally be lucky enough to pick a breeder who is honest and ethical as well as generous, then answer the trick questions correctly ('what do you want them for?' --- if you answer that with 'just eggs, maybe some chicks sometime' then count on getting poor quality rejects)... And there's a host of other hoops to jump through too. Many breeders think what newbies don't know won't hurt them, the birds aren't destined for greatness anyway in the hands of a newbie. Not all breeders are like this of course, just plenty of them.

Best wishes with them all.

Chooks4life has given some excellent observations.

Completely agree with the "look in the eye" observation. Have always used this observation myself, and we have always had what we feel are 'balanced' birds- including the roos.

When we went to a breeder's ranch once to choose an adult roo, although we knew her roosters were wild from being unsocialized, it was quickly apparent there was no meanness in any of their expressions. Wild can be dealt with- crazy mean roos, not a chance.

One rooster was visibly relaxed and kept looking at me in the eye, tilting his head gently and "smiling" at me when I spoke to him. I could see gentleness in his face and manner. He was the one we choose, and we've been very pleased with him. You can't get a roo sweeter to
humans, or better to hens.
.

This is him smiling. When a chicken 'smiles' they seem to relax their features and half close their eyes by bringing up their lower eyelids. Some hens do this too. Sounds a bit strange I know... but every very sweet chicken I know does this when they get attention they seem to like. Some people won't agree with this, but this is my personal observation. All of my favorite chickens respond like this when I speak to them, and they seem contented.

As Chooks4life suggested, watch carefully, calmly interact and speak gently to your girl and see how she responds. Best of luck- I hope it works out for you!

 

[chooks4life]

X2 on What One Chick Two said, that's also been something repeatedly verified in my experience as well. Never had a vicious rooster 'smile' at anyone (good term for that expression, by the way), and by now I can spot a mean rooster or hen at first sight by the look in their eyes, and neurotic ones have a similar look except generally less direct, more blank, and tense without focus. Their faces do demonstrate their mental states but they're not as largely expressive as dogs are, for example.

Many people refer to the look of malicious intent in a chook's eye as 'the evil eye' and it's as good a description as any, once you know what it looks like you can more easily select such birds out of your breeding stock.

A chook who 'smiles' at you trusts you and has no harmful intentions; they have a sweet nature, not just inclined to tolerate you, but also inclined to enjoy your company and view you in a very positive light. They're often the ones who seek you out to spend time with you without any clear reason for wanting your company i.e. they're not getting given treats. Human-oriented rather than human-averse. Chicken are overall of a very faithful nature, more so than many other livestock who fluctuate hormonally to more visible degrees. The 'smiling' display also applies to turkeys and other birds as well, by the way.

Best wishes.