Marans Thread - breed discussion & pictures are welcome!

[pinkchick]

Thank you CP! Didn't mean to scare ya. I was just lazing around outside yesterday taking photos of my birds and he was just laying there like that, sound asleep, sunbathing. He only moved after I took 2 pics of him and one of the younger birds sqwuaked because I scared her when I came around the coop run corner to snap the pic. Funny little things aren't they.

 

[geebs]

Snowbird What I write on here I don't come by on my own... I spend many hours researching to find what I have found and I ask ppl that have genetic experience.... If you find something to the contrary please post it... I found the answers in both the UK and Austrailia referencing the same thing...It is also listed as a serious fault on the French website it doesn't just say why. It is my understanding that the backcrossing of the black coppers with other colors is where some of these faults come in and it makes sense genetically. I just thought I would share my findings at the questions were asked... Please share your experience as well.

I have no hidden agenda here as I am not a showperson, nor am I a seller of eggs. I said I would go looking and post my findings as I have done... Please correct anything that you don't agree with and then everyone can share their experience.

P.S. thanks Pinkchick for the compliment on my pullet.

Now about the females... It is stated that the females are more difficult to control the melanisers so a dark shank is allowed and the hackles should be colored all the way around the neck but not into the breast... The green shine is not necessary. I also read that the green speaks of the melanisers...too much black.. If you have a lot of the beautiful sheen look at your birds and you will see that there is a lot of mahogany as well... the color desirable for the female is the same as for the males but allows for a larger degree of variance to the red... The males are much easier to control.. With the females it is important to pay close attention to the eye color because it is difficult to achieve. So for me this would mean that besides conformation I would be needing to choose my females based on the eye color as one of the first things to have correct. It states that rigorous backcrossing to orange eyed males corrects the problem in the females. Italso states that the females eye color is lighter than that of the male. Too light is bad and too dark is bad...

 

[shelleyb1969]

Quote:
I did a lot of research before I chose to begin vaccinating my flock and found many different beliefs in regards to Marek's and vaccinations. Do you know if there's any documentation in regards to research done by MSU to substantiate their beliefs? Please don't take this as me being stubborn and non-conceding.

I'm just wondering since there's so many differing opinions on the matter, by both experienced professionals and backyard poultry breeders. It would be nice if there was something published in regards to an actual research project that has been done.

Shelley, I have been to MSU a few times for the Pollurium certifying and their is a chance to ask all the big wigs questions during and after.Sometimes they also have small clinics after the certifying group. When I talked to Dr. Fulton he stated to me that all poultry in the worl should be vaccinated for Mareks as it has been in epidemic proportions in lots of areas. Mareks is the only vaccination they recommend unless you will be exposing your fowl to areas like shows where you will be exposed to various disease.

Probably the powder form of Mareks is because the wafer product was unavailable for a while and some of the supply people used it to get rid of the powder. The best time to order the Mareks vaccine is in cold weather and I order a bottle for every week that I plan on hatching. Hope this is what you are looking for. There has always been lots of disease at shows in our area. Most shows you can walk into the building and smell Coryza soon as you are around the sale bird area. All for now.

Thanks so much Don. How do I find out when those clinics are happening? Through the MDA website or the MSU website?

 

[Wynette]

shelleyb - I looked into NPIP a few years ago, and contacted an NPIP official I knew of in Indiana - here is his reply:

I appreciate your interest in the NPIP program. Each state has its own NPIP program and Official State Agency but all must meet the minimum national NPIP requirements. Since you live in Michigan, you would need to certify your flock through the Official State Agency in Michigan. Feel free to contact:

George House
Executive Director/NPIP Representative
5635 Forest Glen Drive SE
P.O. Box 242
Ada, MI 49301
Ph: (616) 676-5593
Fx: (616) 676-1494
[email protected]

or

Dr. R. M.(Mick) Fulton
Michigan State University
Diagnostic Center for Populations & Animal Health
4125 Beaumont Road
Lansing, MI 48910-8104
Ph: (517) 353-3701
Fx: (517) 355-2152​

 

[DuckLady]

Folks, I cleaned up this thread again.

Please read this post before hitting the "submit" button.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=4640070#p4640070

If there is a problem, just use the report button and let the Staff handle it.

 

[shelleyb1969]

Quote:

Thanks Wynette! Maybe I'll call and see if I can get some info about some of their clinics. I know they offer a lot of clinics on various topics, I just don't know when they are. NPIP is a very popular one, but they offer a few others as well.

 

[snowbird]

Quote:

Shelley, the Number for Dr. Fulton is the one you want to call as he is in charge of the testing, and they have George House and all the Agriculture official there also. The last time I was there they had a small fowl clinic after the testing class with some of the Professors there. We might be able to get them to schedule some kind of Fowl clinic if they were asked.

George House just keep track of the form when they are sent in for the testing. If you plan on showing it would be a good idea to take the testing class as you could do your own testing as some of the shows now are checking the paper work. The testing class has always been in february lately , no need to schedule since it is the only one they have each year. Don

 

[snowbird]

Wynette and Shelley, once you do or have your birds tested your name will go into the npip book that comes out with all the names of people that have tested their fowl. Good luck to all with your Marans and other breeds, maybe can see you at the shows in future. Don

 

[geebs]

This is an exert that I found on an Austrailian website explaining why to breed what and what not to do etc. I have been told this is not plagurizing since I have listed the source The Marans Club of Australia... Feel free to go and look what they say about the other colors... I find this a fascinating read.



Colours based on the ER allele:


Brown-Red



( also known as Black Copper or Copper Necked)

Brown-Red Cock

Brown-Red hens Brown-Red hatch down


The name Red-Brown may seem strange for a bird that is a black breasted red in the cock, and a red birchen in the hen, one needs to look back to the beginning of the breed to find the reason. The first crossings were made using English fighting cocks, the “cockers” named the colour of the birds by what they could see when they were fighting in the pit, the breast and the back. So a bird with a broken breast (black with red/brown markings, and a red back was called a Brown Red. The Brown-Red, has been the main variety of the breed for numerous years. Indeed, more than 80% of the members of the Marans Club of France have selected the Brown-Red variety. It is also very popular in the Low Countries and the USA. Its numerical superiority widely demonstrates the constant interest breeders have in this variety. This success is due to several reasons. A nice Brown-Red Marans flock has style. Furthermore, we find that hens of this variety lay the darkest extra reddish-brown eggs of all Marans. This variety, together with the Birchen (Silver-Black) and Golden-Salmon (Black-Red), are birds, which are the closest in type to the Standard. Moreover, the great number of existing birds reduces the problems associated with inbreeding. At the present time, it's the Brown-Red Marans, which is used as a source of improvement, in the sometimes deficient, egg colour quality of the other varieties.

■- the Brown-Red is based on the Birchen gene, ER, of which there are three, and only three, other varieties.

They are the:

The Blue Brown-Red (Golden-Blue), the Birchen (Silver-Black) and the Blue Birchen (Silver-Blue).
Consequently, if crossing to improve other Marans varieties (Wheaten, Black-tailed-buff, White....) is carried out, the Brown-red variety can't be recommended from a plumage point of view. However when we are forced to turn to the elite of this variety because of the qualities of their extra-reddish egg colour) we must do so.



Note: in the search of an improvement to the Silver-Cuckoo variety, it is better to choose good Silver Birchen bird that lays dark eggs.

This improving cross, of the Silver-Cuckoo variety with the Silver Birchen produces good results because, in the Marans, many Silver-Cuckoos are probably based on the Birchen allele and not on the Extended Black.


The selection of the Brown-Red variety
In order to select and improve the Brown-Red variety, the most commendable solution consists in avoiding out crossing to any other variety. It is advisable to stick rigidly to an internal selection in the Brown-red variety as long as possible and to out cross only
in an emergency such as that caused by severe inbreeding depression… They most suitable outcross would be to one of the other ER based varieties.

However, this recommendation doesn't mean that crossings between varieties is impossible, but that it makes the control and the follow-up of the genetic characteristics inherited much more uncertain. One of the trickiest situations results from the crossings between Brown-Red (Birchen) and Black birds, by the confusion caused by the colour of the resulting hens …

When a Brown-Red is mated to a variety that is recessive to it all the resulting progeny will look like a Brown-Red. That's why some young birds of other colours can appear in Brown-Red lines. These colours, which are due to recessive characteristics, disappear after the first crossing with the Brown-Red but remain latent in the genotype ready to reappear in future generations; this is called the "atavistic return" of the recessive allele.


While it requires work to maintain its black and coppery markings, at the level of ideal distribution, the Brown-Red variety, in most cases, is genetically fixed and stable. The selection for "true" Marans characteristics since the beginning of time has had as its priority the dark reddish-brown egg colour, has been to the detriment of correctly coloured exhibition birds. Clumsy crossings with Black or Wheaten coloured subjects have achieved nothing to correct this. Conversely, there are very nice Brown-Red Marans exhibition stock that have been selected for plumage colour but lack the ability to produce a dark red colour in their eggs.



Let us be clear and precise: they are no longer Marans!



So the Brown-Red colour pattern of black and red (or copper) is relatively unstable in comparison to the other varieties. The breast can be entirely black, or full of copper marks down to the thighs.


Only the selection can maintain the required colour.




Description of the Brown-Red Marans
The origin French Marans Standard stated

■- the cock must be "black except for the hackle, saddle, shoulders, and the coppery lancet. The breast is slightly spangled which reddish-brown spots…"
■- the hen must be black, except in the hackle feathers that have a golden edging, and having some reddish-brown on the breast".
This description deserves some comments in order to avoid faulty interpretation, which might be given by breeders.

The current SCAF Standard states:

■- the cock must be "black with copper finery, the lancets of the hackle and of the small of the back which are widely copper-red edged, and a black or lightly reddish-brown marked breast."
■- the hen must be "black with not too many glints, with a copper hackle and a black or lightly reddish-brown marked breast." The precision of the vocabulary, which is used, is very important. We should also notice that the hackle mustn't be golden but copper, and that the cock breast is reddish-brown spotted and not spangled. The hens have a black breast, and not necessarily have reddish-brown glints like the cock. Too much reddish-brown in the hen may cause an unbalance of the Brown-Red colour due to an excessive of undesirable golden glints on the back and the wing.
The Brown-Red cock.

With a majority of black feathers, the head, the hackle, the saddle and the lancets must be copper-coloured. In respect to the definition of this "coppery colour", some variation is allowed but must however remain a mid-copper to red-copper.We must reject that which is too light, an ochre, yellowish colour, or straw-coloured at the hackle. Shades such as fawn and golden-buff are also incorrect. Copper is not fawn. The colour must always be strong enough, so that any ambiguity might be avoided in these differing shades. Some feathers, especially in the lower part of the hackle and the lancets, can be more or less black-red. The shoulders should be crimson-red coloured exactly the same as the Black-Red Duckwing cock (e+ wild type).

This colour shows itself to be quite velvety, and can turn a reddish-brown colour especially when the whole tone is mainly "copper-red". This red colour of the shoulders must be sufficiently spread to the whole of the small wing covers, making a uniform mass, which it will be, if it is not blended with the black. Such black spots, when they appear blend into the red of the shoulders, as well as on the saddle and on the lancets revealing a colour unbalance (there is a too much dominance of black in comparison to the copper). Their breast is black whereas the ideal breast as well as the throat is well marked by coppery spots, but not excessively so.

A Brown-Red cock with too much red on the breast A Brown-Red cock with a yellow neck hackle

Another sign that reveals an unbalance between black and copper: is the colour of the ear tufts, it has a circular form and it has a more or less brown-fawn colour (for the correct copper coloured cocks). In the overly black cock, the colour would range from a blackish tone to a totally black, (as would the hens).

In well-marked cocks, the colour of the ear tufts must match, more or less, the copper colour of the head. The shoulders must always be a good copper-colour. Even thought such cocks have a black breast without reddish-brown spots, they give excellent results in the breeding pen. The coppery colours of the shoulders and of the ear tufts have a very positive influence on the balance of the black and copper colouring. The cocks with blackish ear tufts, black spotted shoulders, and those with a totally black breasts result in a lack of copper colour, and will produce a very high proportion of pullets that are completely black, or lack sufficient copper colour in the hackle. They must be culled from the breeding pen.

The cock, which too much colour in the breast, with strong fawn or red markings down to the thigh are again very bad. Indeed, they seem to produce pullets with an incorrect colour due to the presence of patterns blurring the breast, and the body, and with light
feathers shafts. These pullets should be excluded without the slightest hesitation, and the cocks should also be rejected.

.

The green sheen on the black plumage is not required in the Brown-Red Marans. The absence of this green sheen has a correlation with the presence of a grey rather, than black under colour; orange-red eyes rather than black eyes; of brown eggs; and slate legs that are due to the amount of melanin that is present in the bird. So the ideal compromise consists in seeking and preserving by rigorous selection, a perfect balance between too much black and too much copper.
It must be understood that this balance in the Brown-Red colour is characterised in the cock as follows:

■- a sufficiently strong copper colour (not excessively black), with red-coloured shoulders
■- a slightly coppery marked breast
■- a black breast but only if the shoulders and the ear tufts are good
■- orangey-red eyes and clear (whitish) shanks
When we select birds with a very red coppery colour, it seems more difficult to contain excess black on the whole body. The black tone is often deeper and glossier. So, the search is for a good and strong coppery colour, but no more than that appears to be necessary to stabilize the very best balance of colours.

On the contrary, the light coppery tones produce, more widely, a dominance of the incorrect golden tone, at the expanse of black. We must also note that the colour of the cock hackle often show a two tone shade because the fringe has a stronger colour
than the rest of the body. The hackle colour is close to that of the lancets. This is correct, and this contrast is of variable intensity (which is however less important in the strong red-coppery colour).



How to correctly distinguish the Brown-Red variety

A Crow wing (black triangle) Brown-Red A Duckwing (brown triangle) Wheaten, the Golden Salmon is also a Duckwing

The colour of the Brown-red cock can resemble, and can be mistaken for, the colour of other varieties such as the Black-Red (Golden-salmon) or the Wheaten. We can easily understand the disadvantages that such confusions might create for the serious breeder.

In order to recognize definitely the genetically correct Brown-Red, it is necessary to check that the cocks have a totally black wing triangle (a Crow wing). It is the only varieties of above the three that show this black pure wing triangle constituted by the visible fold back of the secondary feathers.

It should not be mistaken with the wingbow, which has nothing in common with the triangle. When a cock has a wing triangle of an ochre-brown, dark-fawn or brown-cinnamon colour, it isn't a Brown-Red cock. It should never be used in a Brown-Red Marans breeding pen, because it is a Marans cock of the Wheaten variety or Golden-Salmon variety.

If this Duckwing phenomenon occurs in a Brown-Red line it shows that the breeding stock used was genetically mixed. In such case, we can understand that it is a genetic variety that appeared as a recessive in the Brown-Red. This must be carefully detected, and selected against, in order to maintain the genetic purity of the Brown-Red breeding stock.

On the other hand, the pullets of these 3 varieties would be easily identifiable.

In order to avoid any mistakes, it must be kept in mind that, for the Brown-Red variety, ever area of the bird that is not a true coppery-red colour must necessarily be a true pure black colour including the "triangle".

So there aren't any other possible alternative or shades in the plumage other that these two tones which are very well contrasted.

Off-white or the white feathers are a disqualifying fault.

Some birds show, in the juvenile plumage, white spots, similar to the recessive Mottling gene (mo), if these spots remain present after the first adult moult the birds must be rigorously eliminated.

It is impossible to easily identify chicks which have an abnormally white down, notably on the head. Moreover, this fault, contrary to others, seems to show relatively few difficulties, since in the end, it almost totality disappears.

The Brown-Red hen
As for the hens, the colour markings are the same as that for the cock.




■- black, coppery colour at the hackle and nothing else.
The head and the hackle are more or less a strong copper colour, varying from mid-copper to red-copper, this variance seems to be the result of black dominance.

Consequently, it is a little more difficult to control the ideal balance with the red-copper colour than with the incorrect light-coppery tone of the hackles that is sometimes encountered. Hens with these overly light yellowish or straw coloured hackles, extensive breast markings, and shafty feathers must be avoided.







Overly marked,yellow hackled, showing shafting of the breast feathers.



A close-up of 'mossiness' in the body plumage of a Brown-Red hen.


The hackle feathers have a black-coloured tip, the ear tufts are usually blackish fawn coloured but are darker than in the cock. All the rest of the body, including the breast must be black without white feathers or other fawn shades, and without a green sheen.

On the other hand, the coppery colour of the hackle must also be present on the front of the neck or throat, and spread out almost down to the breast.

The hens, which are correctly copper-coloured, produce a very satisfactory proportion of cockerels with an ideal red mark on the breast.


These two colour characteristics have a very strong correlative between them; hens that have nice hackles, and cocks that have nice breasts.


Excessive black
The present Brown-red colour instability explains the frequent appearance of nearly or even totally black pullets. These latter, genetically remain Brown-Reds, and under no circumstances are they to be considered a true Black. This mistake must be avoided and these two varieties mustn't be mixed in the breeding pen.

These totally black pullets (or melanised Brown-Red pullets) should not be exhibited at a show as a real Black variety and it would be untruthful to sell them as such. Due to past crossing of Black, E, birds and Brown Red, ER, birds the E allele can be isolated in some Red-Brown lines. This is one reason for the appearance of these melanised birds.

However, some of these ‘too’ black pullets can be useful to correct ‘light’ birds but only if the are known to be ER based, and egg colour is very good. The regular use of very well coloured cocks corrects the excess black in some hens, which are sometimes totally black.


This phenomenon is the same for the eye colour. The regular use of very well coloured cocks whose eyes are orange-red allows improvement in some situations that seem insurmountable (i.e. hens with dark brown or black eyes).

The choice of the cock is of the highest importance in order to improve this Marans variety, the stress must be made with equal stress on plumage and the quality of the egg colour, the ideal selection consists in using 100% of true colour hens (with good coppery hackle), and not selecting the blacks except in cases of emergency in order to preserve the precious extra reddish-brown egg.

In the same line of birds, it is often easier to control the excess black in the cocks, than in the hens. Generally, the cocks have feet, eyes and plumage (including the ear tufts) less darkly coloured than hens of the same breeding. That's why the standard accepts the darker shank and feet of the hens. The orange-eyes are notably essential. Today, very few hens have reddish-brown or black eyes.





Other colour flaws

We can find another colour flaw in the Brown-Red hens. It's the appearance of feathers, which are speckled, stippled, with more or less light marks, fawn-coloured, coppery coloured, or with light shafts. They are said to have stippling on the breast and even on the whole body. Such hens have sometimes been shown as "partridge" Marans, which is totally unacceptable. The true genetic "partridge" colour present in some breeds (like the wild type Duckwing) has nothing in common with these Marans hens, which can only be considered as bad Brown-Reds from which you can get nothing good. These hens often corresponds to cocks whose breast red colour is too spread out down to the thighs, and whose coppery tones are often replaced by a pale light fawn or straw-coloured feather shades, which are considered to be incorrect. Once again, it is advisable to choose as breeding stock only the cocks or hens that are neither too black nor too pale, fawn coloured, or which are a bad, light coppery, colour.

The selection must maintain a fair balance between what are the best black, and the best copper shades.

The genome of the Brown-Red is as stated based on the Birchen ER allele. Without any modifying genes the cock would be a standard Black breasted Red, the hen black with gold in the hackle, and gold lacing on the breast feathers. So as Copper is required the gold s+ gene must be present. Gold will not give us the required Copper colour so the colour depth is increased by the addition of Mahogany, Mh. This genome ER/ER s+/s+ Mh/Mh would still allow too much expression of copper on both the cock and hen, so the black plumage is strengthened by the addition of the melaniser Ml, other recessive melanisers may also be present. Adding the required Dermal Inhibitor, feather shank genes gives for the cock a genome of



ER/ER s+/s+ Ml/Ml Mh/Mh Id/Id W/W Pti-1/Pti-1 and for the hen ER/ER s+/- Ml/Ml Mh/Mh Id/- W/W Pti-1/Pti-1.


As previously stated birds which appear to meet this Standard have been found that are based on Extended Black, E their genome is thought to be E/E s+/s+ Mh/Mh Id/Id W/W Pti-1/Pti-1 (Ml/Ml?) cock, and E/E s+/- Mh/Mh Id/- W/W Pti-1/Pti-1 (Ml/Ml?) for the hen.



SERIOUS DEFECTS TO BE AVOIDED





Cock: brown wing bay, any other colour than black on the flights, straw-coloured hackles. Hen: brown spots on the body.

 

[Wynette]

Quote:
Don, I've been thinking on this for a few years now, and I'm not convinced that NPIP is the right thing for me personally, as I don't know if I'm prepared to close the door to obtaining stock or hatching eggs from someone who is not certified.