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Marans
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Black Copper Marans discussion thread
- Thread starter geebs
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These were pictures of the Salmon Marans I took in France. They are blurry because of my camera. They were the "new" rage there.
What a great thread, I would like some feedback on my BCM. How is my Rooster's coloring?
Geebs and Math, thanks for the great replies.
I realize the slate leg thing is a done deal. But looking at pictures there I see various shades of slate that are all over the place. Debbi's first two birds, the overmelanized ones look like they DO carry ID (shank dermal inhibitors) and that's why the shanks are pale, the hen darker since she's only ID/+ vs the roo who's ID/ID.
Pip on the other hand looks to be maybe ID/id. His shanks look very dark. Which is right??
Most of the roosters I see here on BYC have the pale gray shanks. (look at Pretty's overmelanized roo above this post!) Not what I would call dark slate, I wouldn't even call it medium slate. The hens do have dark slate quite often.
I don't want to be alarmist about this or keep kicking a dead horse, but the ID gene is dominant, and prevails over the darker shanks. And with this genetic makeup being correct in the French birds to which many have been breeding, doesn't this change to dark slate eliminate entire LINES of birds from showing or meeting SOP standard?
I imagine this scenario in the otherwise already complicated BCM world:
ID is incompletely dominant like barring. One dose is weaker than two. Hens can only have one dose. It is my opinion (just through observation of pictures on this thread) that most birds in the U.S. DO have the ID gene. Just look at this black rooster bred by peachick here . That is a black copper rooster with so many melanizers bred in that he is solid black. Yet his shanks remain pale because of the ID gene. I have some black australorps whose shanks look like black snake skin, so the ID gene makes a huge difference on a black bird.
So if BC already carry ID, or at least most of them do, what happens if the current SOP points everyone toward breeding hens that are ID (most hens I've seen are overmelanized already and will need ID) but roosters that are ID/id or worse id/id. Isn't it already hard enough to breed a correct BC?
I personally think it's just the language that is incorrect. Perhaps that light gray color in ID/ID roosters is someone's interpretation of dark slate. But IMO the ID gene is really helpful to eliminate one more variable in the delicate melanizer/mahogany balancing act. Rather than having to balance melanizers in the shanks too, it just doesn't allow the melanizers to form under the skin, across the board, regardless (to some degree) of the level of melanizers in the rest of the bird. Maybe the horse isn't dead and is worth kicking a bit more. Maybe it won't be as simple as breeding toward more melanized birds.
I'll try to take some pics of my two roosters today and post. I have some BC in the inky due today or tomorrow.
Oh Geebs, I'm in Hungary and I believe most of the birds here are from Germany. I have some from UK too, they have similar genetic issues as the U.S.
I realize the slate leg thing is a done deal. But looking at pictures there I see various shades of slate that are all over the place. Debbi's first two birds, the overmelanized ones look like they DO carry ID (shank dermal inhibitors) and that's why the shanks are pale, the hen darker since she's only ID/+ vs the roo who's ID/ID.
Pip on the other hand looks to be maybe ID/id. His shanks look very dark. Which is right??
Most of the roosters I see here on BYC have the pale gray shanks. (look at Pretty's overmelanized roo above this post!) Not what I would call dark slate, I wouldn't even call it medium slate. The hens do have dark slate quite often.
I don't want to be alarmist about this or keep kicking a dead horse, but the ID gene is dominant, and prevails over the darker shanks. And with this genetic makeup being correct in the French birds to which many have been breeding, doesn't this change to dark slate eliminate entire LINES of birds from showing or meeting SOP standard?
I imagine this scenario in the otherwise already complicated BCM world:
ID is incompletely dominant like barring. One dose is weaker than two. Hens can only have one dose. It is my opinion (just through observation of pictures on this thread) that most birds in the U.S. DO have the ID gene. Just look at this black rooster bred by peachick here . That is a black copper rooster with so many melanizers bred in that he is solid black. Yet his shanks remain pale because of the ID gene. I have some black australorps whose shanks look like black snake skin, so the ID gene makes a huge difference on a black bird.
So if BC already carry ID, or at least most of them do, what happens if the current SOP points everyone toward breeding hens that are ID (most hens I've seen are overmelanized already and will need ID) but roosters that are ID/id or worse id/id. Isn't it already hard enough to breed a correct BC?
I personally think it's just the language that is incorrect. Perhaps that light gray color in ID/ID roosters is someone's interpretation of dark slate. But IMO the ID gene is really helpful to eliminate one more variable in the delicate melanizer/mahogany balancing act. Rather than having to balance melanizers in the shanks too, it just doesn't allow the melanizers to form under the skin, across the board, regardless (to some degree) of the level of melanizers in the rest of the bird. Maybe the horse isn't dead and is worth kicking a bit more. Maybe it won't be as simple as breeding toward more melanized birds.
I'll try to take some pics of my two roosters today and post. I have some BC in the inky due today or tomorrow.
Oh Geebs, I'm in Hungary and I believe most of the birds here are from Germany. I have some from UK too, they have similar genetic issues as the U.S.
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- Sep 28, 2008
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Villagechicken: Hungary... I' m hungry too... Okay... totally corny.. (sorry I got you mixed up with someone)
It isn't a dead horse...This issue has been at the table for a while... I really thought it was settled. I don't know the exact language that is being used but I know that it is not supposed to be a dark shank because the very thing you talk about was discussed last year. I thought we had the wording... It really is boiling down to semantics and the interpretation. Until it is written into the SOP it is very much a live topic.
Kick away... I hope it gets up...I do know that the ppl writing the standards are working VERY hard understand how best to deal with this issue...You have a firmer grip on the genetic aspect than I do... I grapple with it... I understand what the result is but not always the building blocks that make it up... Thanks so much for your thoughful and insightful post... Always a pleasure to get geeky with ya...
You are the geekiest!!!
About the golden salmon thing... Thanks for the post Rusty... that bird doesn't look like our presentation at ALL... but the genes could be different across the ocean:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...page=1&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=86&ty=60
This is an example... It is "wildtype". I don't know how many sets of different "wildtype" genes are available here but I have seen two presentations as chicks... It is called "brown" in leghorns and wildtype in other breeds and partridge in others and for marans it is Golden Salmon.
Kick away... I hope it gets up...I do know that the ppl writing the standards are working VERY hard understand how best to deal with this issue...You have a firmer grip on the genetic aspect than I do... I grapple with it... I understand what the result is but not always the building blocks that make it up... Thanks so much for your thoughful and insightful post... Always a pleasure to get geeky with ya...
You are the geekiest!!!
About the golden salmon thing... Thanks for the post Rusty... that bird doesn't look like our presentation at ALL... but the genes could be different across the ocean:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...page=1&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=86&ty=60
This is an example... It is "wildtype". I don't know how many sets of different "wildtype" genes are available here but I have seen two presentations as chicks... It is called "brown" in leghorns and wildtype in other breeds and partridge in others and for marans it is Golden Salmon.
One more kick of that dead horse: I did a search for dark slate shanks online. From what I found, the standard shank color for Black Australorp and Black Orpington adult birds is dark slate. I haven't seen any Marans roosters whose shanks are the same color as BA and BO.
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- #198
- Sep 28, 2008
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Please elaborate on your thoughts. Never mind... I get it... that isn't exactly what we are going for I hope. Like I said before.. Till there is something in place.. This girl is breeding with the eiffel tower... It is the only thing that makes sense in this bird with these genes... I can't wrap my brain around it any other way... (narrow vision?) perhaps...
Bigger question VC: Let's just say the standard written in it's current form is going to the be correct version for all time here in the US... What strategy would you used based on your knowledge of the US birds?
Bigger question VC: Let's just say the standard written in it's current form is going to the be correct version for all time here in the US... What strategy would you used based on your knowledge of the US birds?
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Hmm sounds fun, do you have any pictures?
This is a Golden Salmon female. Photo is borrowed from Feathersite, I could not find a picture of a Golden Salmon male but he would look similar to that of the Wheaten male or a Welsummer rooster, I believe. I will continue to hunt down a photo of a male for you.
I want these in Silver Blue......Bev is working on them.
Hmm sounds fun, do you have any pictures?
This is a Golden Salmon female. Photo is borrowed from Feathersite, I could not find a picture of a Golden Salmon male but he would look similar to that of the Wheaten male or a Welsummer rooster, I believe. I will continue to hunt down a photo of a male for you.
I want these in Silver Blue......Bev is working on them.
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- Thread starter
- #200
- Sep 28, 2008
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Uh... great minds think alike... I did link that photo already... It is the line IN BLUE>>>> I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT YOU would have seen it... LOL
Look UP there ^
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