2.5yr Pekin Bantam: Advice Please: Sick, Grieving or Lonely?

[Coye16]

Hi Everyone

Abit of background:
Afew weeks ago I posted a thread about my Pekin Bantam - she had a swollen eye/ earlobe with a tick on which we removed. She was lethargic & not eating much & after 2.5 days the swelling did not go down. We took her to the vet who gave her an antibiotic injection & some cream for her face. She did say it was rare for a tick bite to cause this.

Afew days later her other eye completely swelled shut, she was unable to leave the coop, found it difficult to eat, had chronic diarrhea & a black patch growing on her earlobe swelling.

We took her back to the vets who said it was likely a virus & she was in a bad way but would try to help (her legs also had sores on). She gave her another antibiotic injection with an anti-inflammatory & she had a little seizure & died at the vets. I was heartbroken. We have one other Pekin Bantam. The vet said if she shows any signs of illness to come in & she would give us some medicine but no need to bring the hen.

Current problem:
The next day my surviving Pekin Bantam had green & yellow diarrhea. She was off her food & nervous about leaving the coop. She did a little foraging but mostly just sat. I thought perhaps this is because she is sad her friend is no longer here & she is grieving or is possibly afraid now she is a lone chicken without a “flock”. She has also gone very quiet.
As she had diarrhea & loss of appetite we went to the vet the next day to ask for some help.

I had been googling the symptoms of my Pekin that passed away & asked the vet if it could have been fowl cholera. The vet said that was unlikely & she thought it was Mareks Disease with an additional virus.

She gave us some soluble antibiotics.
Since then my Pekin’s appetite has been getting worse but her poops are more solid & green. Today she did a pure white poop (my Pekin that died had been doing pure white poops then white diarrhea) & a more normal poop. She is lethargic but willing to exit the coop if I open the side door to jump down. She does forage a little (looking very forlorn - but that could just be how I feel she looks). But mostly she just sits or stands still.

She will drink alittle (with the soluable antibiotics in the water) & she will eat a few pellets in plain yogurt with vitamin drops.
It is 5 days since my other Pekin died. She currently has no other symptoms & none I can see that relate to Mareks Disease.

Has anyone had a chicken die of suspected Mareks but their close companion not catch it or at least not die?
Is it possible my hen is grieving & lonely rather than ill?
I cannot get her another chicken companion at the moment as I don’t know if she’s ill & therefore contagious.
As she is not eating much should I think about syringe feeding her or just wait & see?
Thankyou for any advice you can give.

 

[rebrascora]

It is unfortunate that your vet did not suggest getting a necropsy done on your deceased pekin rather than just speculate about the possible cause.

It certainly is possible that IF this is Marek's, your remaining pekin could have it. The disease has dormant phases and is only contagious during an outbreak. There is a minimum 3 week dormant period between infection and first appearance of symptoms, but can be months or years. Stress usually triggers an outbreak so you would imagine losing her sole flock mate might be a likely trigger for an outbreak, especially combined with depression which suppresses the immune system.
I can really sympathise with your situation.... having an unhappy lone hen that may or may not be infected with a potentially deadly virus..... it really would have been useful to know for sure. It is possible in the UK to have PCR testing for Marek's done on a blood sample, plucked feather shaft or I believe faecal sample and it is not overly expensive..... I think I read it was under £20 for the testing. I'm not sure about what is available in France. It might be worth doing an internet search for poultry vets to see if there is any local practice that offers such a service and what the costs are. Government Agricultural laboratory facilities or possibly veterinary colleges should be able to help with that too.

As someone who has been dealing with Marek's for over 3 years I know how scary it can be in the beginning particularly, but I have had some remarkable recoveries from attacks as well as some heart break.

If testing is not feasible, I would see if you can locate 2 or 3 vaccinated chicks or started pullets, practice 3 weeks of pretty strict biosecurity and then introduce them to your girl via a see but can't touch set up for a few more weeks. In the mean time a mirror in her coop or run and perhaps even some vocal recordings of other chickens might help her to feel a little less isolated.

Good luck

Barbara

 

[Coye16]

It is unfortunate that your vet did not suggest getting a necropsy done on your deceased pekin rather than just speculate about the possible cause.

It certainly is possible that IF this is Marek's, your remaining pekin could have it. The disease has dormant phases and is only contagious during an outbreak. There is a minimum 3 week dormant period between infection and first appearance of symptoms, but can be months or years. Stress usually triggers an outbreak so you would imagine losing her sole flock mate might be a likely trigger for an outbreak, especially combined with depression which suppresses the immune system.
I can really sympathise with your situation.... having an unhappy lone hen that may or may not be infected with a potentially deadly virus..... it really would have been useful to know for sure. It is possible in the UK to have PCR testing for Marek's done on a blood sample, plucked feather shaft or I believe faecal sample and it is not overly expensive..... I think I read it was under £20 for the testing. I'm not sure about what is available in France. It might be worth doing an internet search for poultry vets to see if there is any local practice that offers such a service and what the costs are. Government Agricultural laboratory facilities or possibly veterinary colleges should be able to help with that too.

As someone who has been dealing with Marek's for over 3 years I know how scary it can be in the beginning particularly, but I have had some remarkable recoveries from attacks as well as some heart break.

If testing is not feasible, I would see if you can locate 2 or 3 vaccinated chicks or started pullets, practice 3 weeks of pretty strict biosecurity and then introduce them to your girl via a see but can't touch set up for a few more weeks. In the mean time a mirror in her coop or run and perhaps even some vocal recordings of other chickens might help her to feel a little less isolated.

Good luck

Barbara

Hi Barbara

Thankyou so much for your kind & helpful reply.

I will see if I can find anything out about testing for Mareks in France as you suggest.

In the mean time you mentioned you had had some success in dealing with cases of Mareks & I wondered what you did? Can you recommend anything I should do?

The vet gave me Amidurène which I think is a solvable antibiotic she has to take for 5 days. She isn’t drinking much water though so I am wondering if I should try to syringe some down her throat? I know she really won’t like that but do you think that would be worth the amount of stress it will cause?

I am also mixing vitamin drops in plain yogurt with pellets & now grapes which she eats a little off.

I have noticed she seems to have a problem picking up dry pellets & getting them in her beak. She can reach the food ok she just doesn’t seem able to get it into her beak. I think I read somewhere that can be a sign of Mareks? Is that something you have experienced? I haven’t seen it mentioned in much Mareks literature.

If you can suggest anything else I should be doing to combat suspected Mareks I would really appreciate it.

Thankyou again for taking the time to help!

Best wishes

Fiona

 

[rebrascora]

The picking up but not swallowing pellets is something I have seen. I think it is just a general indication that they are not feeling well but it could also be that she has plaques in her mouth that make pellets painful to swallow, so check inside her mouth if you can. I would give her sloppy foods only because they can be easier to eat and they help ensure the bird doesn't become dehydrated. That said if you medication is supposed to be supplied via the drinking water, she will take very little of it if she is getting her water with her food, so direct dosing might be necessary. Personally I am not a fan of antibiotics with Marek's unless there is a very clear and obvious infection. Antibiotics are hard on the digestive system and that stresses the body. Getting the bird to take such medication, puts them off eating and drinking at a time when both are important and it can stress the bird, direct dosing them, all of which can aggravate an outbreak of Marek's.
I try to keep mine as happy as possible. Feed them pleasant things to eat because once they stop eating they go downhill fast and offer a broad spectrum vitamin supplement like Nettex Nutri Drops which seem to be quite palatable. Being out in the sunshine on grass seems to have benefitted some, but unfortunately the company of other chickens (in a protected environment... cage) and scattering a bit of scratch in and around the cage so that the bird has a sense of foraging with the flock and competing for food to a certain extent, has helped..... obviously that is your stumbling block! I even had two severely disabled pullets scrap... one was pretty much nest bound and the other was on one leg.... for pecking order rights in my infirmary when my sole inmate had to share her ward! It was ugly to watch and I would never have believed it as they had both been happy flock members prior to that and I had already set a couple of dates to euthanize the nest bound bird but she was still eating and bright eyed despite her severe disability. Anyway, getting a companion is sick bay and perhaps in fact that fight was a turning point for both of them. The nest bound bird won the fight and they both became good friends and after a couple more months of supportive care they both made it back to free ranging with the flock and laying eggs. I have also had birds that have gone down with Marek's for a few days and recovered from an attack and quickly and miraculously as they became incapacitated and without any treatment.... they are always susceptible to further attacks though and it might be weeks months or even years later. Marek's symptoms can be as subtle as being unable to keep one eyelid fully open or as dramatic as a bird floundering on it's side with neck and tail twisted in splits posture totally contorted and unable to get up and everything in between. Some even die suddenly without exhibiting any symptoms. Some get the ocular version and have strange shaped pupils or their irises change colour or they lose their depth perception. Some get skin lesions and some get visceral tumours and some get more than one of the above.
The disease also compromises the immune system, so secondary infections are common. I try to support their immune system with vitamins and their digestive system with good nutrition.... treats like little slivers of raw liver, meat, fish, scrambled egg, meal worms and fermented feed or probiotics and some fruit... strawberry and blueberry smoothies mixed into her pellets or perhaps she will take her medicine in a smoothy. It is hard to know what works and what doesn't because of the unpredictable nature of the disease and the fact that some birds recover without any special treatment, whilst others succumb despite your best efforts, but doing your best to keep them bright eyed and enthusiastic about food has to be a top priority. I tried getting medication and remedies like St Johns Wort and turmeric and black pepper into them and they just got sick of it and turned their beaks up at it after a few days. They got stressed and so did I trying o force feed them and since I stopped trying to do that I have had more success, but strains of Marek's vary a lot and here in the UK, I believe we have a milder one compared to some that people experience in the USA which can devastate whole flocks, so what seems like it works for me, may not work for you.
The big problem with your girl may be loneliness and depression which could mean she doesn't have the spirit to fight it.
Have you tried a mirror?

 

[Coye16]

The picking up but not swallowing pellets is something I have seen. I think it is just a general indication that they are not feeling well but it could also be that she has plaques in her mouth that make pellets painful to swallow, so check inside her mouth if you can. I would give her sloppy foods only because they can be easier to eat and they help ensure the bird doesn't become dehydrated. That said if you medication is supposed to be supplied via the drinking water, she will take very little of it if she is getting her water with her food, so direct dosing might be necessary. Personally I am not a fan of antibiotics with Marek's unless there is a very clear and obvious infection. Antibiotics are hard on the digestive system and that stresses the body. Getting the bird to take such medication, puts them off eating and drinking at a time when both are important and it can stress the bird, direct dosing them, all of which can aggravate an outbreak of Marek's.
I try to keep mine as happy as possible. Feed them pleasant things to eat because once they stop eating they go downhill fast and offer a broad spectrum vitamin supplement like Nettex Nutri Drops which seem to be quite palatable. Being out in the sunshine on grass seems to have benefitted some, but unfortunately the company of other chickens (in a protected environment... cage) and scattering a bit of scratch in and around the cage so that the bird has a sense of foraging with the flock and competing for food to a certain extent, has helped..... obviously that is your stumbling block! I even had two severely disabled pullets scrap... one was pretty much nest bound and the other was on one leg.... for pecking order rights in my infirmary when my sole inmate had to share her ward! It was ugly to watch and I would never have believed it as they had both been happy flock members prior to that and I had already set a couple of dates to euthanize the nest bound bird but she was still eating and bright eyed despite her severe disability. Anyway, getting a companion is sick bay and perhaps in fact that fight was a turning point for both of them. The nest bound bird won the fight and they both became good friends and after a couple more months of supportive care they both made it back to free ranging with the flock and laying eggs. I have also had birds that have gone down with Marek's for a few days and recovered from an attack and quickly and miraculously as they became incapacitated and without any treatment.... they are always susceptible to further attacks though and it might be weeks months or even years later. Marek's symptoms can be as subtle as being unable to keep one eyelid fully open or as dramatic as a bird floundering on it's side with neck and tail twisted in splits posture totally contorted and unable to get up and everything in between. Some even die suddenly without exhibiting any symptoms. Some get the ocular version and have strange shaped pupils or their irises change colour or they lose their depth perception. Some get skin lesions and some get visceral tumours and some get more than one of the above.
The disease also compromises the immune system, so secondary infections are common. I try to support their immune system with vitamins and their digestive system with good nutrition.... treats like little slivers of raw liver, meat, fish, scrambled egg, meal worms and fermented feed or probiotics and some fruit... strawberry and blueberry smoothies mixed into her pellets or perhaps she will take her medicine in a smoothy. It is hard to know what works and what doesn't because of the unpredictable nature of the disease and the fact that some birds recover without any special treatment, whilst others succumb despite your best efforts, but doing your best to keep them bright eyed and enthusiastic about food has to be a top priority. I tried getting medication and remedies like St Johns Wort and turmeric and black pepper into them and they just got sick of it and turned their beaks up at it after a few days. They got stressed and so did I trying o force feed them and since I stopped trying to do that I have had more success, but strains of Marek's vary a lot and here in the UK, I believe we have a milder one compared to some that people experience in the USA which can devastate whole flocks, so what seems like it works for me, may not work for you.
The big problem with your girl may be loneliness and depression which could mean she doesn't have the spirit to fight it.
Have you tried a mirror?

Thankyou again for taking the time to write such a supportive & helpful reply! I decided against direct dosing & force feeding as I know my Pekin would find it truly stressful so would probably do more harm than good.

She is managing to eat a bit if I go & hold it in front of her throughout the day - I’m making a wet mush of plain yogurt, drop of antibiotic water, vitamin drops, layers pellets & either cut up grapes or Sweetcorn (as I read Sweetcorn was good at keeping them warm & keeping their weight up plus she likes it).

She’s not really drinking much though of the antibiotic water. As you mentioned you’re not really a fan of antibiotics for treating Marek’s & as the antibiotic injections did not help my other Pekin I’m not too worried about her not having the antibiotic water. I just hope she’s getting enough water from her food to stay hydrated. I also give her melon to help with hydration.

She doesn’t seem to have any of the other symptoms my other Pekin had & it is a week after she died & 3 weeks after she got ill. I think loneliness & missing her companion may be the main problem though she could be fighting off an infection perhaps.

I did try a mirror but it really frightened her but I may try that again but introduce it differently. I found some happy chicken noises on YouTube so I tried playing those to her while she sat in the undergrowth. That got a response! She started crowing like she used to in the mornings to be let out. It’s good she gave a response as it shows she’s still interested in having friends but I hope when no other chooks appeared it didn’t depress her more! So I think I’ll play the sounds for a minute or so later today - even if it looks like I’ve lost my mind playing chicken noises on my mobile to a sad looking chicken in undergrowth!

I am looking into finding a new friend for her which has been vaccinated (at the moment I don’t even know if sellers in France vaccinate poultry for Marek’s etc) & we are thinking of sending a feather from our living Pekin to be tested for Marek’s. I couldn’t find anything in France about testing so would probably contact the Pirbright Institute, UK. I didn’t even know you could get their feathers tested until you told me so thankyou so much for that!

So basically it’s still a question of wait & see if my Pekin gets more sick & trying to help her in the meantime by trying to keep her eating etc. It’s very reassuring to hear you’ve had some good successes with your chooks especially the fighting duo in the infirmary! I hope you continue to have lots of positive outcomes! Thankyou again for all your great advice!