A Heritage of Perfection: Standard-bred Large Fowl

[Wisher1000]

Neo did it better.

 

[neopolitancrazy]

Hello, hamp! Welcome to BYC

Congratulations on acquiring a blue Showgirl, I think blue chickens are absolutely lovely.

I don't raise Naked Necks, but I believe they are also known as Turkens, which are full-sized chickens with bald necks and normal feathers. I believe Silkies are bantams, (which is to say they are miniature chickens,) with a full covering of feathers that are more like silky hair. I have no idea how many of the chicks would have bare necks if you bred a Silkie to a Showgirl. However, if you bred a blue Silky to a blue Showgirl, approximately half of their chicks would be blue. (And approximately one quarter would be black, and one quarter would be white splashed with random gray feathers.)

I would imagine you could get a better answer on a thread devoted to Silkies or Showgirls. (Most of the people who follow this thread raise full-sized chickens in varieties listed in the American Poultry Association's reference book, the "Standard of Perfection.")

In any case, I learn a lot on this thread by just reading along and learning from the more seasoned chicken fanciers.

Best wishes,
Angela

 

[Yellow House Farm]

That's what I'm afraid of lol! I'm hoping to keep it small but this whole chicken math thing...I know I'm doomed.

Heather, you're only doomed if you do it incorrectly, and many do it incorrectly. When you actually decide you are, or really anyone is, going to become a breeder:

1. Get rid of every other chicken on your property--every single one--every poopsie, boopsie, and clyde. Get rid of chickens that aren't part of your breeding program. You will need every drip of infrastructure at your disposal to run a proper program. Many--many--folks fail because they do not do this.

2. Don't imagine that you can breed a new variety or cross anything productively until you have been working with an established variety for several seasons. Otherwise you will create junk, frustrate yourself, waste a ton of money, and quit. You're not going to establish some landrace wonder. See number 1.

3. Admit that you're going to build infrastructure openly. Create a plan. You need breeding spaces, which are small coops, or a larger coop divided interiorly into smaller units, plan for a minimum of four; this might be a 16x6 or 16x8 unit divided into four sections with discreet runs off the back.

4. You need two growing pens, one for cockerels and one for pullets. They can be of equal size or one can be larger (for pullets) and one can be, say, a third smaller (for cockerels). This depends on the breed you're raising; with Hamburgs, the latter model can work fine because you can bottom cull (get rid of the worse birds) more quickly. Your growing units can follow several different designs, some more expensive and permanent, some less expensive and permanent. Ask around. You don't want them to be too small though.

This alone will give you the infrastructure that you need, although, if you have the inclination, a holding pen and spaces for individualized cockerels are cool.

5. This relates to numbers 1 and 2. If you want a small, easily balanced, enjoyable breeding program, only have one variety of one breed. Don't make excuses--for many this is the difference between eventual success or failure.

6. Subscribe to the Poultry Press, locate the APA/ABA sanctioned shows nearest you and start attending. Make contacts with APA/ABA breeders and have at it.

7. Realize that culling is part of the game and don't have an existential, Bambi debate over it.

8. Be aware that there are very--exceedingly few--true breeders of poultry. I would estimate that an easy 95% or more of folks selling anything on line are not even close to being what an established, peer-acknowledged APA/ABA breeder would call a breeder, and that might be generous. Most varieties of most breeds are maintained by a mere handful of breeders, some times only one or two, who supply, in either immediate or proximal generations, all of the standard-bred chicks of that breed. Most other folks are what we term multipliers; they buy birds and hatch eggs; they exercise little to no skill in selection and need to continuously return to breeders to maintain any quality in what they are working with, for fowl poorly selected degenerate in a matter of few generations.

There are, to my knowledge, no true breeders of standard-bred Golden Hamburgs remaining. The best multiplier of standard-bred fowl I know of is Duane Urch, but be aware that his stock is a starting point--possibly the best starting point. He advertises 100 breeds of standard-bred poultry, which by sheer definition, will keep anyone from being a breeder. He is, however, probably the standard-bred industry's most respected large-scale multiplier.

Hopefully this helps. It seems a bit rigid, perhaps, but the results of this sort of discipline are awesome. It will also lead to calm focus and, with the help of a true mentor, or true mentors, a career of success in standard-bred poultry.

Cheers!

Thank you! I've read other threads referencing Duane Urch and he seemed to be the most reputable person offering the rare heritage breeds I'm interested in and I had bookmarked his site a while ago as a source for chicks when the time comes.

Would you mind explaining eb+ and ER?

All chicken colors are built on top of certain black bases that are specific patterns; we say black because they have to do with the distribution of black on the bird. "eb" is the color of a Dark Brown Leghorn. ER is the color of a Birchen cock. Just google these images, you'll see the difference. The question with each black base is how does the black respond when genetic pressure is added to make the black move. ER is very fluid and moves around easily; thus the black tail can easily be reduced to a spangle and the black stripe in the hackle can easily be reduced to a tick on the tip, which explains the Silver Spangled Hamburg. eb is more stubborn, especially in specific regions and does not cede its space without a fight. Therefore, with the same gene pressure for spangling in the Golden Hamburg as is in the Silver Hamburg, however, with an eb base, one procures a spangled bird with a fully black tail and full black stripe in the hackles becuase the eb base does not easily yield its black hold over those regions. So, look at the Birchen Game and SS Hamburg, and notice the difference in black distribution in hackle, saddle and tail. Then compare a Dark Brown Leghorn male with a Golden Spangled Hamburg male and notice the extreme similarity in black placement--the black that doesn't move. Thus, when some Golden Spangled Hamburg breeders moved to produce a Golden Spangled line with tail and saddle/hackle like the Silver Spangled Hamburg, it was a move to completely create a variety that had never existed. This fad, like most fads, had a highly deleterious effect on the Hamburg community. It divided breeders into camps and polluted the Golden Hamburg gene pool. Eventually, in the confusion, they were dropped by almost everybody, and the end result is that today I can not call to mind a single breeder for whom standard-bred Golden Spangled Hamburgs--an outstandingly lovely fowl--is the main focus--not one breeder in all of North America.

For this and other reasons, you will find that many of the best breeders in the country are markedly against any sort of fadism in standard-bred poultry as being deleterious and dangerous to the breed. The APA and ABA Standards are full of breeds that are practically obsolete because of fads. It is why many of us are completely against any sort of fetishized import--because only the uninitiated see these fowl and see quality.

The same horrible scenario is currently going on in Orpingtons, Polish, Sussex, and Brahmas. Ridiculous and unsophisticated colors and types are being mused about on the internet by people with very limited understanding. They, in turn, in their ignorance, fill other new-comers up with stories of bogus glory. All of a sudden folks without a lick of standard-bred experience want to get their rubbish fowl into the SOP. When their inexperience is met with resistence from the APA/ABA communities, they assume it is because the APA/ABA community is unmalleable or exclusive, it doesn't occur to them that communities that are 140 years old and 100 years old respectively have dealt with a different worthless fad (or ten) every decade and have come to understand that they do much more harm than good.

As far as Hamburgs go, all six varieties of Hamburg where part of the original standard published in 1874--all six. One could argue that they were the most established breed of exhibition poultry qua exhibition poultry in the community. They have now almost disappeared in standard-bred form. If the few remaining are not assumed and reestablished by true breeders, they will become as decimated and obsolete as the French breeds, and silly newbies want more Marans colors......

I got a blue naked neck hen (showgirl)today do I breed her to a blue silkie to get more naked necks

One would say a Blue Naked Neck Silkie. A Naked Neck is a dual-purpose breed in the AOSB/SCCL class. The Naked Neck Silkie is a sub-variety of Silkie, which is the breed name. I'm not sure if Blue is a recognized color. It might just be white. Walt will know. The Naked Neck gene is an incomplete dominant (I BELIEVE) so it behaves like the Blue gene; ergo you only want one copy of the gene in the bird oryou'll get too much or too little naked neck. If you breed a Naked Neck Silkie to a feathered neck Silkie, I think, you'll get 50/50.

PS: The term "Showgirl" is even worse than the word "roo". To serious breeders it sounds very--very--silly.

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
If you are seeking a book or obscure lit, let me know and I will go after it. If I can't find the book ( unlikely) ,
I can usually find articles on the subject. Have 8 years experience researching info for authors. 15 years
experience chasing rare and obscure lit ( no bizarre or filthy lit, I do not search for lit that doesn't leave you
in a better place than before you read it) for authors, research ,collecting, and reselling. It's just a blast
and I love doing it.
Best,
Karen

 

[troyer]

Hi,
If you are seeking a book or obscure lit, let me know and I will go after it. If I can't find the book ( unlikely) ,
I can usually find articles on the subject. Have 8 years experience researching info for authors. 15 years
experience chasing rare and obscure lit ( no bizarre or filthy lit, I do not search for lit that doesn't leave you
in a better place than before you read it) for authors, research ,collecting, and reselling. It's just a blast
and I love doing it.
Best,
Karen

I would like to have extensive information on the Cubalaya breed. There is some information available that I've read, but it seems there should be more. I find that the information seems very limited and some breeders say that the information that is fairly readily available is not exactly accurate. This is the best article I have seen yet. From Feathersite.com.

by
Claus W. Twisselmann
with permission from
SPPA Bulletin, 2001, 6(1):5
It was so very nice and flattering of Ed Hart to ask me to share some thoughts and experiences, practical and acquired, to share with the members and readers of the SPPA. Naturally, since antiquities are involved, it is only logical to share what little I know about a breed very dear to my heart, the Black Cubalaya. Black is one of the three recognized colors, Black Breasted Red, Black and White, and just about as rare a variety as it can come.
It could be that the White, though I raised them many years ago, are now extinct. I have not started to check whether there are more breeders in this country nurturing them. Of course, nobody really knows of the existence or popularity in their land of origin, "Castro's Cuba." One thing is for sure, the Cubalaya is not strictly an Oriental breed, but a combination Oriental fighting stock combined with British and European utility breeds. This is mirrored in the fact that the Cubalaya is strictly a white skinned, white legged (slate in Blacks) breed. They also have multiple spurs. Most spurs have round knobs, though, indicating other than Sumatra blood. From the European side of their ancestry stems a fairly good production in number of eggs. They are almost pure white in color and more round than pointed. The male birds, especially when they get some age (over 2 years) on them, display usually a good amount of colored feathers with white under color. Selective breeding will overcome this unfavorable effect and pure black males are possible to produce. Sadly, it takes longer than other visible faults, more or less like monarchism in dogs, it is only 100% visible on the males. A perfectly black colored female can still harbor the gene for red hackle and saddle feathers in her sons. Some day old chicks may expose a deep red spot somewhere on the down and should be disposed. They are definitely carriers for AOTB (any other than black) genes. At this point it is also recommended to check for multiple spurs should you desire to anchor them into your breeding line. Since we know they have Oriental ancestry, we can only guess breeds used from the opposite side of the world. In my breeding line I constantly experience a high percentage of five toes usually in Siamese style forming one unit and usually only on one foot. All genetic science points to a dominant gene for five toes, here it shows up in a recessive incomplete form. First, I thought that maybe the Dorkings were the other half of the pedigree, but have discarded that thought and actually have to lean toward the Faverolles. Several hundred years ago the French epicures valued the Faverolles as one of the finest meat-breeds at that time and I believe the British followed suit. It is claimed that no white skinned European breed has finer texture and tastier meat. What makes me think of the Faverolles is actually the color and the five toes combined. The Black Breasted Red (the original variety) is indeed a form of Wheaton expressed as a Cinnamon in the female. The other two colors, Black and White, are sports bred for purity.
The reason the cross between Orientals and European breeds took place was the Latin origin of the Cuban people, especially the men. They enjoyed a good cockfight every now and then, while the women of the household had to feed the family and wanted eggs and meat. A double purpose satisfied everyone. Since Cuba is part of the American continent the Cubalaya breed should actually be classified as American, instead of Oriental. This could be part of the reason this lovely breed has never attained the popularity it rightfully deserves.
When kept on free range, they practically nourish themselves foraging. They are easy on the eye to look at, they are nice to have around and are very smart. I have never had one to attack his human keeper and they are naturally tame from day one. It is not uncommon to see your breeding rooster jump on your lap and look you straight in the eye and/or one of his hens on the other leg just wanting to get petted.
All my birds originate from one pair of not much consequence, though they were purebred. The male had too many red feathers and poor type, the female was black and resembled a Cubalaya. Neither of the original pair came up to the weight called for in the Standard. Vitality was excellent from the start and preserved throughout my breeding them. Every egg was hatched and not many survived the knife the first year. Strict culling for type, size and stamina has paid off handsomely. Most males are black, all have much better type and ironically size has increased yearly. The best pullet I raised last year weighs five pounds and has fantastic green sheen. Artificial incubation is excellent, but traditionally right from the start takes 22 days. The Cubalaya as a backyard fowl, a show fowl, meat and egg fowl or just a plain pet is hard to beat, that's why it takes another day of incubation to put the whole package together.
An after thought: several years ago, the Cubalaya invaded central Europe. The imports came from the U.S. and found more fanciers faster than many now popular breeds. At present they are recognized in our traditional Black Breasted Red and in Blue Breasted Red. Over there they are listed under the proper color description, "Cinnamon."

 

[3riverschick]

Oh this is going to be interesting. 2 challenges. Spanish Language and restrictions on getting to Cuban knowledge.
I doubt they have aligned with the great University libraries online. Maybe. I wonder how old this breed was in Cuba?
There is a large Cuban community in south Florida. Let me check around, this may take some time.
Interesting,
Karen ( already checked Google Books, a dearth there for sure.)
----
Checked round little bit. The breed was recognized by the Cuba Poultry Assoc. in 1935. That's pre-Castro and during the time of the great International Poultry Congresses. I am wondering what you would find if you searched the online catalog of the National Agricultural Library? As I remember you can keyword search documents like the Poultry Congresses. NAL stuff can't be checked out by individuals. however you can get your local librarian to request materials for you by interlibrary loan. There's ome smacking good poultry stuff at NAL.
Best,
Karen
==============================

Asociación Nacional de Avicultura, the Cuban national poultry association
--------------------
results if keyword search " international poultry congress" , so much stuff in NAL:
http://search.usa.gov/search?utf8=✓...=international+poultry+congress&commit=Search
==================
ok so we know this journal exists. use google translate to contact them by internet or phone.
see if they have articles on the breed .
Corporate Author(s):
Instituto de Ciencia Animal.
Translated Title:
Cuban journal of agricultural science
Title:
Revista Cubana de ciencia Agricola.
Corporate Author(s):
Instituto de Ciencia Animal.

http://agricola.nal.usda.gov/cgi-bi...T7XZ6znceuiCr19JT7X3UTlZX&BROWSE=2&HC=1&SID=6
http://www.nal.usda.gov/speccoll/collectionsguide/aphsphoto/152PDF.pdf

here's their website, published in Spanish and English.:
http://www.ciencia-animal.org/cuban-journal-of-agricultural-science/
http://www.ciencia-animal.org/cuban-journal-of-agricultural-science/articles/V48-N2-Y2014.php
--------------------------
these are the kinds of lit collections they have. Just have to get the right combinations of keywords to get the ones you want to pop up.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/speccoll/collectionsguide/gwin/072PDF.pdf
========================
http://www.animal-research.org/
http://www.scimagojr.com/countrysearch.php?country=CU
------------------------------
April 18, 2002 CUBA: CURRENT STATE OF THE CUBAN POULTRY INDUSTRY.
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/CUBA:+CURRENT+STATE+OF+THE+CUBAN+POULTRY+INDUSTRY.-a084945202
note mag author is editor of; contact it for further info.
=======================
here's a winner. names to contact for further info on Cuban poultry. also a newer take ( Jul 6, 2010 ) on the older 2002 article above,.
http://www.worldpoultry.net/Home/General/2010/7/Cuba-discovers-the-road-ahead-WP007648W/
======================

Cuban Society of Poultry Producers
Dr Alberto Ramírez, Cuban Society of Poultry Producers
U.S. Agricultural Exports to Cuba: Composition, Trends, and Prospects for the Future
http://www.choicesmagazine.org/choi...mposition-trends-and-prospects-for-the-future
==============================
Poultry Farming Has Met its Mission in Latin America over the Past 50 Years , Thursday, June 19, 2014
http://www.cadenagramonte.cu/englis...ssion-in-latin-america-over-the-past-50-years more names and societies to check you are running down the history and breeding of your breed.
"Havana, Cuba, Jun 19.- The president of the Cuban Society of Poultry Farming, Clemente Alberto Ramirez, said in Havana that the economic sector in Latin America has safeguarded its competitiveness for the past fifty years, as it fosters agri-industrial development in an efficient and productive way."
---------------
I have found that experts love to talk about their chosen subject. elite researchers, literary men, men of science. They love to talk about their passion and help others learn more about it. Just contact these folk and see what falls out of the tree.

 

[tniron]

Who has APA quality LF Dark Cornish that can either ship eggs or chicks?

 

[chambe94]

Clay & Laura Mills in Michigan have really nice LF Dark Cornish.

 

[fowlman01]

Who has APA quality LF Dark Cornish that can either ship eggs or chicks?

I don't know of anyone who raises good LF Cornish that ships eggs or chicks. Most sell only started birds.

Walt

 

[NeilsHamburgs]

Heather, you're only doomed if you do it incorrectly, and many do it incorrectly.  When you actually decide you are, or really anyone is, going to become a breeder:

1.  Get rid of every other chicken on your property--every single one--every poopsie, boopsie, and clyde.  Get rid of chickens that aren't part of your breeding program.  You will need every drip of infrastructure at your disposal to run a proper program.  Many--many--folks fail because they do not do this.   

2.  Don't imagine that you can breed a new variety or cross anything productively until you have been working with an established variety for several seasons.  Otherwise you will create junk, frustrate yourself, waste a ton of money, and quit.  You're not going to establish some landrace wonder.  See number 1.

3. Admit that you're going to build infrastructure openly.  Create a plan.  You need breeding spaces, which are small coops, or a larger coop divided interiorly into smaller units, plan for a minimum of four; this might be a 16x6 or 16x8 unit divided into four sections with discreet runs off the back.

4. You need two growing pens, one for cockerels and one for pullets.  They can be of equal size or one can be larger (for pullets) and one can be, say, a third smaller (for cockerels).  This depends on the breed you're raising; with Hamburgs, the latter model can work fine because you can bottom cull (get rid of the worse birds) more quickly.  Your growing units can follow several different designs, some more expensive and permanent, some less expensive and permanent.  Ask around.  You don't want them to be too small though.

This alone will give you the infrastructure that you need, although, if you have the inclination, a holding pen and spaces for individualized cockerels are cool.

5.  This relates to numbers 1 and 2.  If you want a small, easily balanced, enjoyable breeding program, only have one variety of one breed.  Don't make excuses--for many this is the difference between eventual success or failure.  

6.  Subscribe to the Poultry Press, locate the APA/ABA sanctioned shows nearest you and start attending.  Make contacts with APA/ABA breeders and have at it.

7.  Realize that culling is part of the game and don't have an existential, Bambi debate over it.

8.  Be aware that there are very--exceedingly few--true breeders of poultry.  I would estimate that an easy 95% or more of folks selling anything on line are not even close to being what an established, peer-acknowledged APA/ABA breeder would call a breeder, and that might be generous.  Most varieties of most breeds are maintained by a mere handful of breeders, some times only one or two, who supply, in either immediate or proximal generations, all of the standard-bred chicks of that breed.  Most other folks are what we term multipliers; they buy birds and hatch eggs; they exercise little to no skill in selection and need to continuously return to breeders to maintain any quality in what they are working with, for fowl poorly selected degenerate in a matter of few generations.

There are, to my knowledge, no true breeders of standard-bred Golden Hamburgs remaining.  The best multiplier of standard-bred fowl I know of is Duane Urch, but be aware that his stock is a starting point--possibly the best starting point.  He advertises 100 breeds of standard-bred poultry, which by sheer definition, will keep anyone from being a breeder.  He is, however, probably the standard-bred industry's most respected large-scale multiplier.

Hopefully this helps.  It seems a bit rigid, perhaps, but the results of this sort of discipline are awesome.  It will also lead to calm focus and, with the help of a true mentor, or true mentors, a career of success in standard-bred poultry.

Cheers!



All chicken colors are built on top of certain black bases that are specific patterns; we say black because they have to do with the distribution of black on the bird.  "eb" is the color of a Dark Brown Leghorn.  ER is the color of a Birchen cock.  Just google these images, you'll see the difference.  The question with each black base is how does the black respond when genetic pressure is added to make the black move.  ER is very fluid and moves around easily; thus the black tail can easily be reduced to a spangle and the black stripe in the hackle can easily be reduced to a tick on the tip, which explains the Silver Spangled Hamburg.  eb is more stubborn, especially in specific regions and does not cede its space without a fight.  Therefore, with the same gene pressure for spangling in the Golden Hamburg as is in the Silver Hamburg, however, with an eb base, one procures a spangled bird with a fully black tail and full black stripe in the hackles becuase the eb base does not easily yield its black hold over those regions.  So, look at the Birchen Game and SS Hamburg, and notice the difference in black distribution in hackle, saddle and tail.  Then compare a Dark Brown Leghorn male with a Golden Spangled Hamburg male and notice the extreme similarity in black placement--the black that doesn't move.  Thus, when some Golden Spangled Hamburg breeders moved to produce a Golden Spangled line with tail and saddle/hackle like the Silver Spangled Hamburg, it was a move to completely create a variety that had never existed.  This fad, like most fads, had a highly deleterious effect on the Hamburg community.  It divided breeders into camps and polluted the Golden Hamburg gene pool.  Eventually, in the confusion, they were dropped by almost everybody, and the end result is that today I can not call to mind a single breeder for whom standard-bred Golden Spangled Hamburgs--an outstandingly lovely fowl--is the main focus--not one breeder in all of North America.  

For this and other reasons, you will find that many of the best breeders in the country are markedly against any sort of fadism in standard-bred poultry as being deleterious and dangerous to the breed.  The APA and ABA Standards are full of breeds that are practically obsolete because of fads.  It is why many of us are completely against any sort of fetishized import--because only the uninitiated see these fowl and see quality.

The same horrible scenario is currently going on in Orpingtons, Polish, Sussex, and Brahmas.  Ridiculous and unsophisticated colors and types are being mused about on the internet by people with very limited understanding.  They, in turn, in their ignorance,  fill other new-comers up with stories of bogus glory.  All of a sudden folks without a lick of standard-bred experience want to get their rubbish fowl into the SOP.  When their inexperience is met with resistence from the APA/ABA communities, they assume it is because the APA/ABA community is unmalleable or exclusive, it doesn't occur to them that communities that are 140 years old and 100 years old respectively have dealt with a different worthless fad (or ten) every decade and have come to understand that they do much more harm than good.

As far as Hamburgs go, all six varieties of Hamburg where part of the original standard published in 1874--all six.  One could argue that they were the most established breed of exhibition poultry qua exhibition poultry in the community.  They have now almost disappeared in standard-bred form.  If the few remaining are not assumed and reestablished by true breeders, they will become as decimated and obsolete as the French breeds, and silly newbies want more Marans colors......

One would say a Blue Naked Neck Silkie.  A Naked Neck is a dual-purpose breed in the AOSB/SCCL class.  The Naked Neck Silkie is a sub-variety of Silkie, which is the breed name.  I'm not sure if Blue is a recognized color.  It might just be white.  Walt will know.  The Naked Neck gene is an incomplete dominant (I BELIEVE) so it behaves like the Blue gene; ergo you only want one copy of the gene in the bird oryou'll get too much or too little naked neck.  If you breed a Naked Neck Silkie to a feathered neck Silkie, I think, you'll get 50/50.

PS:  The term "Showgirl" is even worse than the word "roo".  To serious breeders it sounds very--very--silly. 

The main lesson I've learned is a lot of small pens are better than several large ones, except for growing out chicks. I've got 2 large barns with 12x12 pens in them and the new building I'm working on will replace them both and will be less than half the size of one barn.
Large pens work great for growing out birds but are a waste of space when you only keep a pair or a trio or quad in them.